Gun control debate (merged)

It's undeniably stupid, and no mere coincidence you're the only one bringing up nukes and mustard gas.

Aside from automatic rifles, none of the things you grasp at can be discriminately used for personal purposes of defense, hunting or sport, right?

I've explained this numerous times in this thread and others; firearms have everyday utility and can be borne on the person. If mustered (not mustard) the people (males)- the militia - were expected to appear with their own arms and ammo, the arms they have access to in everyday life. It was not intended they keep cannons and grapeshot at home and a duo of oxen to pull it to the militia muster. Nor a galleon in the pond with a canal/levee system to get it to sea.

Can someone find me a horse that knows how to drink?
Well you certainly can't find a horse, much less lead one......you're light years from needing to worry about teaching one to drink.
Below is a quote from your original post:
"You have the right to defend your life or liberty against anyone attempting to take it, use maximum force to stop aggression, and you have the right to use the most efficient tool to do so."

To which I responded with:
"But under your rationale fully automatic weapons, anti-aircraft missiles. land mines, mini-nukes, and mustard gas should all be legal."

To which you responded with:
"firearms have everyday utility and can be borne on the person. If mustered (not mustard) the people (males)- the militia - were expected to appear with their own arms and ammo, the arms they have access to in everyday life. It was not intended they keep cannons and grapeshot at home and a duo of oxen to pull it to the militia muster. Nor a galleon in the pond with a canal/levee system to get it to sea."

Surely you can see the contradiction in your comments: Do you have the right to use maximum force with the most efficient tool or not? In one post you say yes and then in the very next post say no.
 
Well you certainly can't find a horse, much less lead one......you're light years from needing to worry about teaching one to drink.
Below is a quote from your original post:
"You have the right to defend your life or liberty against anyone attempting to take it, use maximum force to stop aggression, and you have the right to use the most efficient tool to do so."

To which I responded with:
"But under your rationale fully automatic weapons, anti-aircraft missiles. land mines, mini-nukes, and mustard gas should all be legal."

To which you responded with:
"firearms have everyday utility and can be borne on the person. If mustered (not mustard) the people (males)- the militia - were expected to appear with their own arms and ammo, the arms they have access to in everyday life. It was not intended they keep cannons and grapeshot at home and a duo of oxen to pull it to the militia muster. Nor a galleon in the pond with a canal/levee system to get it to sea."

Surely you can see the contradiction in your comments: Do you have the right to use maximum force with the most efficient tool or not? In one post you say yes and then in the very next post say no.

The topic and your post and my posts are about GUNS; they are the maximum force for civilians, not golf clubs, dogs, or frying pans.

Even after redundantly emphasizing GUNS for you, this gem: "Do you have the right to use maximum force with the most efficient tool or not? In one post you say yes and then in the very next post say no"

Do you consider mustard gas and nukes, land mines and missiles EFFICIENT tools of self-defense? Can I carry an RPG in an appendix holster, or keep some mustard gas in the nightstand for quick deployment without whacking bystanders or my family? Toss a claymore at the guy breaking in the kitchen window?

If you're unclear on something, ask rather than jumping into the abyss and claiming someone else is crazy.
 
The topic and your post and my posts are about GUNS; they are the maximum force for civilians, not golf clubs, dogs, or frying pans.

Even after redundantly emphasizing GUNS for you, this gem: "Do you have the right to use maximum force with the most efficient tool or not? In one post you say yes and then in the very next post say no"

Do you consider mustard gas and nukes, land mines and missiles EFFICIENT tools of self-defense? Can I carry an RPG in an appendix holster, or keep some mustard gas in the nightstand for quick deployment without whacking bystanders or my family? Toss a claymore at the guy breaking in the kitchen window?

If you're unclear on something, ask rather than jumping into the abyss and claiming someone else is crazy.
That was in no way a defense of your contradictions.
Your quote.........."You have the right to defend your life or liberty against anyone attempting to take it, use maximum force to stop aggression, and you have the right to use the most efficient tool to do so."
You went out of your way to say tool and not gun. The founders went out of their way to say arms and not guns.

Do you have a constitutional right to keep and bear a fully automatic weapon?
Do you have a constitutional right to keep and bear anti aircraft missiles?
Do you have a constitutional right to keep and bear mustard (mustered) gas?

Where is the line drawn and why? Is there room for legitimate disagreement among people as to where that line is drawn and why?

I know there is even disagreement within the 2a crowd in the PF. How can that be if the 2a is so clear-cut?
Obviously it is not as clear-cut as many try to claim, and there must be interpretations made.
 
Well you certainly can't find a horse, much less lead one......you're light years from needing to worry about teaching one to drink.
Below is a quote from your original post:
"You have the right to defend your life or liberty against anyone attempting to take it, use maximum force to stop aggression, and you have the right to use the most efficient tool to do so."

To which I responded with:
"But under your rationale fully automatic weapons, anti-aircraft missiles. land mines, mini-nukes, and mustard gas should all be legal."

To which you responded with:
"firearms have everyday utility and can be borne on the person. If mustered (not mustard) the people (males)- the militia - were expected to appear with their own arms and ammo, the arms they have access to in everyday life. It was not intended they keep cannons and grapeshot at home and a duo of oxen to pull it to the militia muster. Nor a galleon in the pond with a canal/levee system to get it to sea."

Surely you can see the contradiction in your comments: Do you have the right to use maximum force with the most efficient tool or not? In one post you say yes and then in the very next post say no.

I don’t think mustard gas is legal even in wartime.
 
Big win for 2nd Amendment last night. So proud of the founders. They absolutely nailed it on gun rights. Don't know how any other country wouldn't want to copy our gun law regime.

5 dead in Texas 'execution-style' shooting, suspect armed with AR-15 is on the loose

"Police said they believe the massacre occurred after neighbors asked the suspect to stop shooting his gun in the front yard because there was a baby trying to sleep.

"My understanding is that the victims, they came over to the fence and said 'Hey could [you not do your] shooting out in the yard? We have a young baby that's trying to go to sleep," and he had been drinking and he says 'I'll do what I want to in my front yard,'" San Jacinto County Sheriff Greg Capers told KTRK."

Illegal immigrant that probably used dims app where he could make an appointment and get ushered across the border. May have been one of the guns Barry and Holder gave them.
 
That was in no way a defense of your contradictions.
Your quote.........."You have the right to defend your life or liberty against anyone attempting to take it, use maximum force to stop aggression, and you have the right to use the most efficient tool to do so."
You went out of your way to say tool and not gun. The founders went out of their way to say arms and not guns.

Do you have a constitutional right to keep and bear a fully automatic weapon?
Do you have a constitutional right to keep and bear anti aircraft missiles?
Do you have a constitutional right to keep and bear mustard (mustered) gas?

Where is the line drawn and why? Is there room for legitimate disagreement among people as to where that line is drawn and why?

I know there is even disagreement within the 2a crowd in the PF. How can that be if the 2a is so clear-cut?
Obviously it is not as clear-cut as many try to claim, and there must be interpretations made.

There is no contradiction except that in your head, the false premise you constructed by excerpting, ignoring my mentioning GUN twice, the 2A and militia. If you had an honest question "are you saying mustard gas, nukes, etc should be legal?" but you didn't. You posed a dishonest premise by saying my logic establishes such and that it is undeniably stupid. I agreed, that it was dumb for you to make that leap.

Again, it's undeniably stupid to introduce that hash into discussion, then imply the other person is stupid when you can ask a simple question. The discussion, my post in reply to you is about GUNS. Citizens shooting someone is maximum force. Got it now?

Autos: I think we probably do as U.S. vs Miller would imply, that the court having no notice that such a weapon (a short-barreled shotgun) was commonly used by the military, was not found to be protected on that basis. Miller had died, and the other defendant (Lawton or Layton) and his defense didn't show, thus the court has no evidence presented that SB shotguns had been used in our military conflicts, which they have since WWI and probably before. My advice: it's not an issue very much in the mind of gun owners and enthusiasts; control advocates & prohibitionists might well let the dog lie and cease referring to semiautos as weapons of war.

No to missiles and mustard gas, as those have no personal defensive, sporting, or hunting uses and are decidedly not the type of weapon the militia - every man of fighting age - keeps by the bed or behind the door, thus could not show up bearing mustard gas because he certainly can't keep it as a personal arm to begin with.

Do I think, if it became necessary to fight our own government using such weaponry on us, the founders would object to citizens getting their hands on them and using them? - no.
Semiautos like AR/AK types - the founders would undoubtedly approve.

There's room for some disagreement when not painting the other person with your imagination and impugning them with your brush; start there.
Where the line is, is the line I have at least dozens of times on these forums stated it and just to you again in the second response; it's about firearms which "have everyday utility and can be borne on the person. If mustered (not mustard) the people (males)- the militia - were expected to appear with their own arms and ammo, the arms they have access to in everyday life." That's it.
 
Yes I have, but why the hell does that matter and what would it prove?
There have been areas of wealth and areas of poverty for throughout history.
Because it clearly demonstrates how utterly clueless you are about how bad things can be, aby your continued encouragement to force us in that direction.
 
There is no contradiction except that in your head, the false premise you constructed by excerpting, ignoring my mentioning GUN twice, the 2A and militia. If you had an honest question "are you saying mustard gas, nukes, etc should be legal?" but you didn't. You posed a dishonest premise by saying my logic establishes such and that it is undeniably stupid. I agreed, that it was dumb for you to make that leap.

Again, it's undeniably stupid to introduce that hash into discussion, then imply the other person is stupid when you can ask a simple question. The discussion, my post in reply to you is about GUNS. Citizens shooting someone is maximum force. Got it now?

Autos: I think we probably do as U.S. vs Miller would imply, that the court having no notice that such a weapon (a short-barreled shotgun) was commonly used by the military, was not found to be protected on that basis. Miller had died, and the other defendant (Lawton or Layton) and his defense didn't show, thus the court has no evidence presented that SB shotguns had been used in our military conflicts, which they have since WWI and probably before. My advice: it's not an issue very much in the mind of gun owners and enthusiasts; control advocates & prohibitionists might well let the dog lie and cease referring to semiautos as weapons of war.

No to missiles and mustard gas, as those have no personal defensive, sporting, or hunting uses and are decidedly not the type of weapon the militia - every man of fighting age - keeps by the bed or behind the door, thus could not show up bearing mustard gas because he certainly can't keep it as a personal arm to begin with.

Do I think, if it became necessary to fight our own government using such weaponry on us, the founders would object to citizens getting their hands on them and using them? - no.
Semiautos like AR/AK types - the founders would undoubtedly approve.

There's room for some disagreement when not painting the other person with your imagination and impugning them with your brush; start there.
Where the line is, is the line I have at least dozens of times on these forums stated it and just to you again in the second response; it's about firearms which "have everyday utility and can be borne on the person. If mustered (not mustard) the people (males)- the militia - were expected to appear with their own arms and ammo, the arms they have access to in everyday life." That's it.
So if it became necessary to fight our own government, we would be free to try to get our hands on any type of weapon that was not previously allowed under the law? I agree. I'll leave it at that for now.
 
I get all that. But under your rationale fully automatic weapons, anti-aircraft missiles. land mines, mini-nukes, and mustard gas should all be legal. And that is simple undeniably stupid and not what the founders intended.
Once that incontrovertible fact is accepted, then it logically falls to drawing a rational and reasonable line.
WAT.jpg
 
There is no contradiction except that in your head, the false premise you constructed by excerpting, ignoring my mentioning GUN twice, the 2A and militia. If you had an honest question "are you saying mustard gas, nukes, etc should be legal?" but you didn't. You posed a dishonest premise by saying my logic establishes such and that it is undeniably stupid. I agreed, that it was dumb for you to make that leap.

Luther? Posed a dishonest premise? Say it ain’t so!

It is one of his shticks.
 

Sounds like your type of crowd, and I'm not sure if I would call that "fresh" air:

The driver, identified as 19-year-old Miquise Fulwiley, eventually stopped and was arrested, along with a passenger, identified as 18-year-old Ty'Quan Kelly.

Fulwiley was charged with failure to stop for blue lights, simple possession of marijuana and the unlawful carry of a pistol.

Kelly was charged with simple possession of marijuana and unlawful carry of a pistol.
 
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Look: another "responsible" gun owner!

This story encapsulates what our insane gun culture has done to this country. It's a snapshot
of the gun violence that's happening all over the country, every day, and it is uncivilized, insane and it's a genuine threat to every person
in this country.

Man resumes date after leaving to shoot dead ‘scammer’ over $40, police say
I saw yesterda, where several countries (Canada, England, France....) have raised their travel advisory threat level for the US.
 
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