Gun control debate (merged)

#26,552
#26,552
luthervol said:
Oh no I'm not; you're simply wrong. But being so consistently and hard headedly wrong explains why gun nuts come across as so irrational.

We can say "are too", "am not" as long as you wish, but it obviously leads nowhere. And like it or not, I'm the only one in a position to actually know.

And WTH does this mean? "You never said "Boo" to the ATF making millions of currently legal gun owner's felons, with no real recourse." It doesn't make millions felons, what a hysterical overreaction. Just register the freakin' gun.
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Gun registries have been ruled unConstitutional. Mr. Rational and Reasonable. Another case of you trying to use imprecise language to grab more than you want to let on.

Applying for the tax stamps is what you meant. And to avoid being felons all of those Americans, in the millions, would have to apply all at once, and hope the ATF processes ALL of the paperwork in the time the ATF gave. The previous wait time for the SBR's, the tax stamp in question here, was 30 days. That's probably with a few thousand a month to process. They are increasing the number of those applications alone by several hundred times, and making no allotment for that increase demand. The new ATF regulations doesn't make accommodations for the individuals if the ATF can't process their paperwork in time if the individual submitted in time. So you could try and apply for the tax stamp in time, pay the tax (poll tax), and still be a felon. Nothing in the ATF says that they have to accept all of the applications. Does that seem right to you Mr Rational and Reasonable? Millions are going to become guilty of a felony over night, and you think its a good thing.
 
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#26,553
#26,553
luthervol said:
minimum wage.
The purpose of the minimum wage was to stabilize the post-depression economy and protect the workers in the labor force. The minimum wage was designed to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well-being of employees.
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just like the Tuskegee experiments were for the good of the people they were experimenting on...

even you have to admit that at some point

what the government claims as their intention is either blatantly false, or gets dropped as soon as possible.

you would rather believe beautiful lies than ugly truths.
 
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#26,554
#26,554
StarRaider said:
comes down to individual rights (Liberty) vs. communal rights (we scared of those army guns gov'mnt needs to save me)... i just gonna take the former guaranteed by the USC.
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except being scared isn't a right. That is precisely what the Constitution was set out to protect against. It was the very foundation of our nation to not let the mob rule. to not let the federal bully hold all of the power.
 
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#26,555
#26,555
LouderVol said:
Gun registries have been ruled unConstitutional. Mr. Rational and Reasonable. Another case of you trying to use imprecise language to grab more than you want to let on.

Applying for the tax stamps is what you meant. And to avoid being felons all of those Americans, in the millions, would have to apply all at once, and hope the ATF processes ALL of the paperwork in the time the ATF gave. The previous wait time for the SBR's, the tax stamp in question here, was 30 days. That's probably with a few thousand a month to process. They are increasing the number of those applications alone by several hundred times, and making no allotment for that increase demand. The new ATF regulations doesn't make accommodations for the individuals if the ATF can't process their paperwork in time if the individual submitted in time. So you could try and apply for the tax stamp in time, pay the tax (poll tax), and still be a felon. Nothing in the ATF says that they have to accept all of the applications. Does that seem right to you Mr Rational and Reasonable? Millions are going to become guilty of a felony over night, and you think its a good thing.
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It took me 13 months to get a stamp for an SBR. Longer for a suppressor. The people can't take their brace off and store it for when their stamp arrives either. That's called "constructive intent" and is a felony.
 
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#26,556
#26,556
luthervol said:
Come on. The fact that our legal system has never been color blind has never meant that we should scrap the legal system and not have laws. What it does mean is that we should constantly and publicly acknowledge that the system is biased and continually work to overcome that bias.
By the way, BLM protests were intended to do just that.
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except that you were just in here denying the racist history of gun laws and minimum wage, and now you are trying to minimize them. All the while you are continuing to push what will be even more biased laws after admitting they will have the disproportionate racial impact.

I don't see doubling down as a way to overcome bias. This country never drops laws, these racist laws will always be racist, we will never reach a point where they aren't, and even if we did it wouldn't justify them while they were racist.
 
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#26,557
#26,557
InVOLuntary said:
It took me 13 months to get a stamp for an SBR. Longer for a suppressor. The people can't take their brace off and store it for when their stamp arrives either. That's called "constructive intent" and is a felony.
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yup, I was just going off what the ATF would openly admit; while hopefully letting him come to the rational and reasonable conclusion that trusting the government to efficiently process the paperwork was a fools hope.
 
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#26,558
#26,558
85SugarVol said:
Come on.

We had drug laws in the 80’s & 90’s - lots of them. They were just sure more laws were the answer.

We have gun laws here right now - lots of them. You are just sure more laws are the answer.

I’m sure it would be different this time, though.
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Come on.

The fact that laws do not stop all crime is an accepted fact. To use that fact as rationale for no new laws or as an argument against improving the laws is simpleminded.

I've always been for continually evaluating the effectiveness and fairness of laws and making appropriate changes.
 
#26,560
#26,560
LouderVol said:
just like the Tuskegee experiments were for the good of the people they were experimenting on...

even you have to admit that at some point

what the government claims as their intention is either blatantly false, or gets dropped as soon as possible.

you would rather believe beautiful lies than ugly truths.
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That's simply nonsense.
I'm for recognizing the faults of the past and the present and working to improve.
There's really no alternative.
 
#26,561
#26,561
LouderVol said:
except that you were just in here denying the racist history of gun laws and minimum wage, and now you are trying to minimize them. All the while you are continuing to push what will be even more biased laws after admitting they will have the disproportionate racial impact.

I don't see doubling down as a way to overcome bias. This country never drops laws, these racist laws will always be racist, we will never reach a point where they aren't, and even if we did it wouldn't justify them while they were racist.
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Gun laws and minimum wage are not actions rooted in racism. They are actions with a racial component. Like every action in the history of the US.
 
#26,562
#26,562
luthervol said:
Gun laws and minimum wage are not actions rooted in racism. They are actions with a racial component. Like every action in the history of the US.
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they started with racism as the intent behind them, that sounds like "rooted" to me. The implications of those laws to this day are still racially negative, that sounds like "rooted" to me.

the fact that you propose new laws which will have an even greater impact based on racial lines says to me we still haven't even attempted to address the racial aspects. You are brushing it off as acceptable collateral damage, just as they did in the past.

we haven't improved one bit. we are just getting worse and worse with every law.
 
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#26,563
#26,563
luthervol said:
That's simply nonsense.
I'm for recognizing the faults of the past and the present and working to improve.
There's really no alternative.
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except that nothing you propose is actually an improvement. you have admitted this multiple times "at least we are trying something". Doing something for the sake of doing something is NOT an improvement.

Hiding from the reality of the problem is not an improvement.
hiding from the reality of the problems created by the proposed solutions is not an improvement.
Doubling down on what has already failed is not an improvement.
 
#26,566
#26,566
LouderVol said:
they started with racism as the intent behind them, that sounds like "rooted" to me. The implications of those laws to this day are still racially negative, that sounds like "rooted" to me.

the fact that you propose new laws which will have an even greater impact based on racial lines says to me we still haven't even attempted to address the racial aspects. You are brushing it off as acceptable collateral damage, just as they did in the past.

we haven't improved one bit. we are just getting worse and worse with every law.
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They did not. And we have. Ask any person of color if they view the legal system today as less colorblind than the legal system 100 years ago, or 50 years ago, or 30 years ago.
I think you know how the vast majority would answer.
It's called progress.
 
#26,572
#26,572
luthervol said:
They did not. And we have. Ask any person of color if they view the legal system today as less colorblind than the legal system 100 years ago, or 50 years ago, or 30 years ago.
I think you know how the vast majority would answer.
It's called progress.
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which is why the percentage of the total jailed population is still disproportionately minorities.... Georgia | Incarceration Trends | Vera Institute of Justice

careful, you might have to address your own racism if you carry down this line much further.
 
#26,573
#26,573
InVOLuntary said:
I think he's advocating for more cops too. His party won't like that.
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They love that. They want a police state, people like Luther believe that they will be one of the elites/protected just like the thousands that helped push Lenin's rise to power and ended up in a mass grave.
 
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#26,574
#26,574
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#26,575
#26,575
hog88 said:
They love that. They want a police state, people like Luther believe that they will be one of the elites/protected just like the thousands that helped push Lenin's rise to power and ended up in a mass grave.
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He wants cops to enforce laws on the middle class only but overlook street crime and elitist crime. He think he'll be among the elitist.
 
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