Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

[madtownvol]

Apparently utk has one of the finer SCM degrees around.

It has been a point of emphasis since I was in grad school and let's say, it's been a minute...

 

[madtownvol]

Because one thing we need is more discussion of this. Maybe someone could start a thread?

!

An angel gets it wings for every new thread about Kellie's job status!!

 

[Volfan2012]

 

[madtownvol]

A few thoughts about this vid.

First, a clear sign that the vultures are circling and that Kellie has more or less burned up her capital (likable, great LV player) that could cover for less than hoped for results. Open media discussions about changing coaches were not part of the conversation last season, even when the team hit it mid-season skid.

Second, it is not quite fair to say that this season's under performance problems began before Tamari Key was "injured." TK was a shell of her former self from the opening tip. She got slayed on this board for her eyelashes before it was known that she was playing through a potentially life threatening condition.

Third, I don't really hold the slow start against Kellie. The opening schedule proved to be stronger than anticipated and the new additions had (and still have to some extent) major adjustment issues. Only Hollingshead has really come on as a major contributor (along with Rickea of course).

Kellie does have to take responsibility for exacerbating some of the chemistry issue through her handling of Rickea, substitution patterns (stuff discussed ad nauseam on this board).

Fourth, the big concern with Kellie and staff is that this team has not yet gelled and still has many of the same problems that undercut its pre-conference record.

Fifth, the commentators are a being a little too generous about Pat's legacy. After CP3 graduated, the LVs stopped making it to the final four and even suffered a first round elimination. Most people explain that decline as reflecting CPS's illness. But, we have to be honest, it was the declining effectiveness of "defense and rebounding win championships" as a meta-game plan (and where the 3 point shot is a last resort). The formula could still work when you had the TRANSCENDENT talent of the generation (and a supremely talented support cast) but otherwise, it makes you an also ran. Kellie's team is built for the old school game and the players who could potentially change that--Justine--are being saved for later.

A more contemporary coach might accept a degree of defensive liability if Justine could deliver a consistent offensive punch and spread the floor.

I know Gametime envisioned a bombs away scenario with Tess, Justine and Sara launching 3s from all angles and then Rickea and Jordan finishing the kill in the paint. Quite honestly, that is the formula for success in today's game.

Slow paced, pound the paint offensive schemes just don't get it done on a regular basis .

I fear Caitlin Clark would only get 5 to 10 minutes a game at best if she played for Kellie cause CC doesn't rebound that well and her defense game is a little shaky.

 

[Jax_Vol]

Pat Summitt's son Tyler names first daughter after legendary Tennessee Volunteers coach (msn.com)

 

[glv98]

Third, I don't really hold the slow start against Kellie. The opening schedule proved to be stronger than anticipated and the new additions had (and still have to some extent) major adjustment issues. Only Hollingshead has really come on as a major contributor (along with Rickea of course).

Kellie does have to take responsibility for exacerbating some of the chemistry issue through her handling of Rickea, substitution patterns (stuff discussed ad nauseam on this board).

I do blame Kellie for the schedule. She misread her team's potential and took a much bigger schedule gamble than was necessary to challenge them. I still say the schedule was the first and original sin. Also obviously misread chemistry.

I would argue that Franklin has been a major contributor, or at least lived up to what she was brought in to do. She's solid, would hate to be without her.

Fourth, the big concern with Kellie and staff is that this team has not yet gelled and still has many of the same problems that undercut its pre-conference record.

Our problems are still our problems. Is that because our roster is still our roster? Player development among certain players seems sluggish. And recruiting is non-existent. Other than that . . .

Fifth, the commentators are a being a little too generous about Pat's legacy. After CP3 graduated, the LVs stopped making it to the final four and even suffered a first round elimination. Most people explain that decline as reflecting CPS's illness. But, we have to be honest, it was the declining effectiveness of "defense and rebounding win championships" as a meta-game plan (and where the 3 point shot is a last resort). The formula could still work when you had the TRANSCENDENT talent of the generation (and a supremely talented support cast) but otherwise, it makes you an also ran. Kellie's team is built for the old school game and the players who could potentially change that--Justine--are being saved for later.

Truth right there. The LVs began a slow descent well before Pat's illness. She knew her offensive approach was dated. Somehow, all these yrs later, it's still not fixed.

 

[Volfan2012]

A few thoughts about this vid.

First, a clear sign that the vultures are circling and that Kellie has more or less burned up her capital (likable, great LV player) that could cover for less than hoped for results. Open media discussions about changing coaches were not part of the conversation last season, even when the team hit it mid-season skid.

Second, it is not quite fair to say that this season's under performance problems began before Tamari Key was "injured." TK was a shell of her former self from the opening tip. She got slayed on this board for her eyelashes before it was known that she was playing through a potentially life threatening condition.

Third, I don't really hold the slow start against Kellie. The opening schedule proved to be stronger than anticipated and the new additions had (and still have to some extent) major adjustment issues. Only Hollingshead has really come on as a major contributor (along with Rickea of course).

Kellie does have to take responsibility for exacerbating some of the chemistry issue through her handling of Rickea, substitution patterns (stuff discussed ad nauseam on this board).

Fourth, the big concern with Kellie and staff is that this team has not yet gelled and still has many of the same problems that undercut its pre-conference record.

Fifth, the commentators are a being a little too generous about Pat's legacy. After CP3 graduated, the LVs stopped making it to the final four and even suffered a first round elimination. Most people explain that decline as reflecting CPS's illness. But, we have to be honest, it was the declining effectiveness of "defense and rebounding win championships" as a meta-game plan (and where the 3 point shot is a last resort). The formula could still work when you had the TRANSCENDENT talent of the generation (and a supremely talented support cast) but otherwise, it makes you an also ran. Kellie's team is built for the old school game and the players who could potentially change that--Justine--are being saved for later.

A more contemporary coach might accept a degree of defensive liability if Justine could deliver a consistent offensive punch and spread the floor.

I know Gametime envisioned a bombs away scenario with Tess, Justine and Sara launching 3s from all angles and then Rickea and Jordan finishing the kill in the paint. Quite honestly, that is the formula for success in today's game.

Slow paced, pound the paint offensive schemes just don't get it done on a regular basis .

I fear Caitlin Clark would only get 5 to 10 minutes a game at best if she played for Kellie cause CC doesn't rebound that well and her defense game is a little shaky.

They didn't show a lot of awareness of the program. They may have been reading posts here for some of their information. Not knowing that Key was never a factor this season that she was ill from day one is something we were all unaware of early, but everyone should understand that now. Team hasn't improved is there for all to see if they have been following the team. 29 turnovers in game one 23 turnovers the other night. Sure we've had some good games where we didn't turn it over guess those were days when decision making were at a high level. The sad thing is half our turnovers are always bad decisions that could've been prevented. That is what is so discouraging.

 

[glv98]

Just watched the vid.

WTF is he talking about with 4s who can't stretch because they can't shoot? Jillian and Karo say hold my beer while I show you my midrange. He uses this non-existent shortcoming to say KJH is too stuck to the Pat philosophy of pound it inside, and that she doesn't embrace the 3. Tess in the starting lineup says hello.

KJH has problems but neither of those things are amongst them. So that makes the whole thing lose credibility for me. The rest is just a bunch of stuff already said around here a thousand times a day. I'm going to go ahead and say if there is a coaching change after next year, it will not be from the PS fam. Unless Candace, I do believe that ship has sailed for now.

 

[And1]

Just watched the vid.

WTF is he talking about with 4s who can't stretch because they can't shoot? Jillian and Karo say hold my beer while I show you my midrange. He uses this non-existent shortcoming to say KJH is too stuck to the Pat philosophy of pound it inside, and that she doesn't embrace the 3. Tess in the starting lineup says hello.

KJH has problems but neither of those things are amongst them. So that makes the whole thing lose credibility for me. The rest is just a bunch of stuff already said around here a thousand times a day. I'm going to go ahead and say if there is a coaching change after next year, it will not be from the PS fam. Unless Candace, I do believe that ship has sailed for now.

If Candace was hired, recruits and transfers alike would be knocking down the doors of TBA trying to come here.

 

[LVBB_Legacy]

Candace is like Peyton. Why would she ever want to be a coach? She's got too many things going on now to even have time for it, plus all of the headaches that go along with coaching college ball now.

She has transcended the sport, just like Peyton, that's put her on a pedestal of name recognition and popularity.

If Candace was hired, recruits and transfers alike would be knocking down the doors of TBA trying to come here.

 

[madtownvol]

Just watched the vid.

WTF is he talking about with 4s who can't stretch because they can't shoot? Jillian and Karo say hold my beer while I show you my midrange. He uses this non-existent shortcoming to say KJH is too stuck to the Pat philosophy of pound it inside, and that she doesn't embrace the 3. Tess in the starting lineup says hello.

KJH has problems but neither of those things are amongst them. So that makes the whole thing lose credibility for me. The rest is just a bunch of stuff already said around here a thousand times a day. I'm going to go ahead and say if there is a coaching change after next year, it will not be from the PS fam. Unless Candace, I do believe that ship has sailed for now.

To your earlier post, I should have included Franklin in the contributor column. Her issue is that she is not up for every game due to her knee. I think this stretch of the schedule where the games are a bit more spaced is really good for her.

On Karo, that is the maddening thing. KJH is not using her that way,. She mostly banging in the post against undersized players. When she does shoot from the perimeter, it is more of a oh crap, the shot clock is running down all hands on deck emergency, Even then, she seems hesitant about shooting (if i miss, bench for me!!). And last season, teams starting attacking Key just this way, Having post players step out for mid range and it caused all kinds of problems. Karo is that kind of player. Kellie does not have to invent a new scheme, just steal what works from other people, though that would entail "change," which seems to be her bugaboo.

 

[Darth_Vol]

Just another reminder: you blew it Kellie.

Cue up Geno's tantrum in 3... 2... 1...

 

[GameTime]

A few thoughts about this vid.

First, a clear sign that the vultures are circling and that Kellie has more or less burned up her capital (likable, great LV player) that could cover for less than hoped for results. Open media discussions about changing coaches were not part of the conversation last season, even when the team hit it mid-season skid.

Second, it is not quite fair to say that this season's under performance problems began before Tamari Key was "injured." TK was a shell of her former self from the opening tip. She got slayed on this board for her eyelashes before it was known that she was playing through a potentially life threatening condition.

Third, I don't really hold the slow start against Kellie. The opening schedule proved to be stronger than anticipated and the new additions had (and still have to some extent) major adjustment issues. Only Hollingshead has really come on as a major contributor (along with Rickea of course).

Kellie does have to take responsibility for exacerbating some of the chemistry issue through her handling of Rickea, substitution patterns (stuff discussed ad nauseam on this board).

Fourth, the big concern with Kellie and staff is that this team has not yet gelled and still has many of the same problems that undercut its pre-conference record.

Fifth, the commentators are a being a little too generous about Pat's legacy. After CP3 graduated, the LVs stopped making it to the final four and even suffered a first round elimination. Most people explain that decline as reflecting CPS's illness. But, we have to be honest, it was the declining effectiveness of "defense and rebounding win championships" as a meta-game plan (and where the 3 point shot is a last resort). The formula could still work when you had the TRANSCENDENT talent of the generation (and a supremely talented support cast) but otherwise, it makes you an also ran. Kellie's team is built for the old school game and the players who could potentially change that--Justine--are being saved for later.

A more contemporary coach might accept a degree of defensive liability if Justine could deliver a consistent offensive punch and spread the floor.

I know Gametime envisioned a bombs away scenario with Tess, Justine and Sara launching 3s from all angles and then Rickea and Jordan finishing the kill in the paint. Quite honestly, that is the formula for success in today's game.

Slow paced, pound the paint offensive schemes just don't get it done on a regular basis .

I fear Caitlin Clark would only get 5 to 10 minutes a game at best if she played for Kellie cause CC doesn't rebound that well and her defense game is a little shaky.

Hell of a post Mad, hell of a post!

I totally agree, Catlin Clark would be mostly an afterthought with Harper's archaic offensive approach to modern day basketball....It's still get the ball inside first, if not by a forced pass, then a drive by our tiny pg's, or our very inconsistent shooting guard....

Don't let the wings (gunners) get too near the lane because their defensive player will help clog up the middle....Must have that inside game first...Just have them stand to the side and mostly watch....Our outside gunners look like flower pots, they are so restricted with their limited movements...

About a dozen games back, Justine hit I believe 2 deep 3's and about a 15 footer...The interviewer excitingly asked Harper what she thought of it....It was not what she said that caught my attention, but the look on her face as she said it...It was sort of a yeah, so what, look...She has played very little since.

 

[airvols]

I know the AD will put together a list of qualified candidates. It’s my hope we cast the net wide and don’t require a VFL to be the priority. I just want the best EXPERIENCED coach available. With our tradition there is absolutely no reason not to compete for a National Championship every year.

 

[JFP]

Hell of a post Mad, hell of a post!

I totally agree, Catlin Clark would be mostly an afterthought with Harper's archaic offensive approach to modern day basketball....It's still get the ball inside first, if not by a forced pass, then a drive by our tiny pg's, or our very inconsistent shooting guard....

Don't let the wings (gunners) get too near the lane because their defensive player will help clog up the middle....Must have that inside game first...Just have them stand to the side and mostly watch....Our outside gunners look like flower pots, they are so restricted with their limited movements...

About a dozen games back, Justine hit I believe 2 deep 3's and about a 15 footer...The interviewer excitingly asked Harper what she thought of it....It was not what she said that caught my attention, but the look on her face as she said it...It was sort of a yeah, so what, look...She has played very little since.

 

[JFP]

Hell of a post Mad, hell of a post!

I totally agree, Catlin Clark would be mostly an afterthought with Harper's archaic offensive approach to modern day basketball....It's still get the ball inside first, if not by a forced pass, then a drive by our tiny pg's, or our very inconsistent shooting guard....

Don't let the wings (gunners) get too near the lane because their defensive player will help clog up the middle....Must have that inside game first...Just have them stand to the side and mostly watch....Our outside gunners look like flower pots, they are so restricted with their limited movements...

About a dozen games back, Justine hit I believe 2 deep 3's and about a 15 footer...The interviewer excitingly asked Harper what she thought of it....It was not what she said that caught my attention, but the look on her face as she said it...It was sort of a yeah, so what, look...She has played very little since.

Vanderbilt has now taught the TN men's team that a 3 point shot is 1/3 more than an earth shaking slam dunk. Back when Kellie played for Pat she shot 3 pointers in the games won for 3 in a row national championships. Now as a coach she should know the value of 3 point shots being what they are. Made three point shots should be wanted for many reasons and and could stll save his season.

 

[VolFuture]

Never understood the love for her. If she is playing wing against a HS team playing a 2-3 zone she'd be effective. She's slow and can't guard anyone and can't create her own shot. And Darby is even slower......the game is faster and these girls have gotten left behind

Puckett is a 4 not a 3 idk why we act like she’s a wing

 

[glv98]

Vanderbilt has now taught the TN men's team that a 3 point shot is 1/3 more than an earth shaking slam dunk. Back when Kellie played for Pat she shot 3 pointers in the games won for 3 in a row national championships. Now as a coach she should know the value of 3 point shots being what they are. Made three point shots should be wanted for many reasons and and could stll save his season.

Wait, who said KJH doesn't value the 3 pt shot? It's the reason Tess stays in the starting lineup and why Sara still plays as much as she does. What hurts us w 3 pt shooting is that both our superstars are below average 3 pt shooters, as are our PGs.

Not playing Justine in no way means Kellie doesn't know 3s are important. It means she thinks Tess is hitting as many as Justine is likely to hit plus is better in other areas. Justine is not ready.

Kellie knows what the offense needs, she says it every game. Movement, spacing, crisp passes, good decision making. Unfortunately the players haven't been able to execute that with any consistency and she hasn't been able to coach them up to do so. Her offensive concept is fine, she just can't make it happen.

 

[madtownvol]

Wait, who said KJH doesn't value the 3 pt shot? It's the reason Tess stays in the starting lineup and why Sara still plays as much as she does. What hurts us w 3 pt shooting is that both our superstars are below average 3 pt shooters, as are our PGs.

Not playing Justine in no way means Kellie doesn't know 3s are important. It means she thinks Tess is hitting as many as Justine is likely to hit plus is better in other areas. Justine is not ready.

Kellie knows what the offense needs, she says it every game. Movement, spacing, crisp passes, good decision making. Unfortunately the players haven't been able to execute that with any consistency and she hasn't been able to coach them up to do so. Her offensive concept is fine, she just can't make it happen.

Yes, you are right, just as Pat Summit also came to embrace the three-pt. shot as a necessary evil. Similarly, Kellie's team is still built primarily to go into the paint for points and 3s are mainly a tool/threat for spreading the floor. For example, Kellie has no problem playing Walker and Powell together, which means we have an undersized backcourt that shoots about 20% (maybe less) from three). So, Kellie is accepting some trade-offs to get I don't know more defensive quickness on the court. I don't think the idea of playing Tess AND Justine together has ever crossed her mind much less running plays where the end goal is to free up Tess or Justine, rather than spreading the floor and kicking out to them when all else fails. On the ocassions where Tess and Sara are paired together, Sara is generally playing down low, not up top. And as I have said before, she keeps playing Striplin in the Key role, rather than rethinking the offense to use Karo more on the perimeter, where she is taking mid range jumpers and drawing the other team's post out.

 

[volfanstuckinga]

Puckett is a 4 not a 3 idk why we act like she’s a wing

PROBABLY because she spends so much time at the 3 point line? IDK...what do you think?

 

[VolFuture]

PROBABLY because she spends so much time at the 3 point line? IDK...what do you think?

Haha exactly she shouldn’t be there tho

 

[glv98]

Yes, you are right, just as Pat Summit also came to embrace the three-pt. shot as a necessary evil. Similarly, Kellie's team is still built primarily to go into the paint for points and 3s are mainly a tool/threat for spreading the floor. For example, Kellie has no problem playing Walker and Powell together, which means we have an undersized backcourt that shoots about 20% (maybe less) from three). So, Kellie is accepting some trade-offs to get I don't know more defensive quickness on the court. I don't think the idea of playing Tess AND Justine together has ever crossed her mind much less running plays where the end goal is to free up Tess or Justine, rather than spreading the floor and kicking out to them when all else fails. On the ocassions where Tess and Sara are paired together, Sara is generally playing down low, not up top. And as I have said before, she keeps playing Striplin in the Key role, rather than rethinking the offense to use Karo more on the perimeter, where she is taking mid range jumpers and drawing the other team's post out.

I could certainly be wrong, but I've always felt offensively KJH is just trying to patch together whatever will work with whatever she's got. Constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul bc most of her players have some serious limitations. She pounded inside bc we had Tamari Key inside. She's often accused of too much one on one, but we have two of the best one on one players in the country so you have to find a way to take advantage of that. She seems to not rely on the 3 bc we haven't had a reliable 3 pt shooter until Tess this year. I agree she doesn't run plays to get her 3 pt shooters free, but hell she has Rickea Jackson and doesn't run plays to get her free so there's that.

It feels more like just scrambling for what works to score points, not some hard set proclivity for one approach or another. KJH says all the right things, more movement, better spacing, better passing, etc. It's just been an uphill battle to actually execute anything consistently, esp wo a dependable pg who makes good decisions.

 

[Coach Jumper]

I could certainly be wrong, but I've always felt offensively KJH is just trying to patch together whatever will work with whatever she's got. Constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul bc most of her players have some serious limitations. She pounded inside bc we had Tamari Key inside. She's often accused of too much one on one, but we have two of the best one on one players in the country so you have to find a way to take advantage of that. She seems to not rely on the 3 bc we haven't had a reliable 3 pt shooter until Tess this year. I agree she doesn't run plays to get her 3 pt shooters free, but hell she has Rickea Jackson and doesn't run plays to get her free so there's that.

It feels more like just scrambling for what works to score points, not some hard set proclivity for one approach or another. KJH says all the right things, more movement, better spacing, better passing, etc. It's just been an uphill battle to actually execute anything consistently, esp wo a dependable pg who makes good decisions.

Wish I'd said that

 

[VOLPAT]

CPS always kept the toughest schedules and I'm guessing CKH is copycatting the same regimen but the only problem is ......
She doesn't have a Holdclaw, Catchings , Parker or even a Kellie.

BINGO, Prophet.

 

[madtownvol]

I could certainly be wrong, but I've always felt offensively KJH is just trying to patch together whatever will work with whatever she's got. Constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul bc most of her players have some serious limitations. She pounded inside bc we had Tamari Key inside. She's often accused of too much one on one, but we have two of the best one on one players in the country so you have to find a way to take advantage of that. She seems to not rely on the 3 bc we haven't had a reliable 3 pt shooter until Tess this year. I agree she doesn't run plays to get her 3 pt shooters free, but hell she has Rickea Jackson and doesn't run plays to get her free so there's that.

It feels more like just scrambling for what works to score points, not some hard set proclivity for one approach or another. KJH says all the right things, more movement, better spacing, better passing, etc. It's just been an uphill battle to actually execute anything consistently, esp wo a dependable pg who makes good decisions.

Everything you say is accurate. On the flip side, those same facts are what have led me to pivot from being “all in on Kellie” to having real doubts about whether she is capable of getting this program back to a final four/national title contender status. With the exception of Horston and Key, these players are Kellie’s recruits and she has constructed a team that has these liabilities. Yes, people can say, “well there have been extenuating circumstances” (and I have been one of those) but Kellie is an unforgiving business and you either get results or you don’t. Sorry, if you brought in a bunch of workhouses that can’t run with the race horses, you have to face those consequences. And the one player Kellie has signed who could be a race horse has been buried. We both agree that Justine was not ready to jump in against Ohio State. But even in this gauntlet of an opening schedule, the LVs had several games which they won comfortably. A smart coach would have said, these are the games to get Justine up to speed and let my most talented players gel. Instead, she wasted those games with a ridiculous platoon subs that gave precious minutes to players she can’t put on the floor because they are not good enough. If you recruit an upgrade over existing players, you have to get that upgrade in the line-up and that also means you can’t let personal loyalties keep you committed to an inferior player. If Justine were sitting behind a team of All-Americans that would be one thing- you have to wait your turn on this elite team (i.e. how it use to be for the LVs). But, Justine is sitting behind players who could not get near the national team. Kellie blew it and you don’t get do overs in super competitive business where you are paid big $ to make the right calls.