Who Is Our MVP This Year?

Who is our MVP so far this year?

  • Vescovi

  • Nkamhoua

  • Zeigler

  • Key

  • Phillips

  • JJJ

Results are only viewable after voting.
#51
#51
n_huffhines said:
It does because he gets the most help, by necessity. I do not think 1 on 1 defense is why he made all SEC. I think it's because he's a thief, he's great fighting around screens, and it's easy to see that he's trying so hard.
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You think coaches voted someone all SEC because “it’s easy to see that he’s trying so hard”? Wut?
 
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#53
#53
We probably have about 6 or 7. Depends on which games you want to review. That is one of the really good things about this team. We don’t have only one really good player.
 
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#54
#54
bleedingTNorange said:
So then what you’re saying is that the guy he’s guarding shoots better against him than others on the team?

You seem to be ignoring that a hand in the face isn’t the only way to contest a shot, being up underneath someone is about as annoying as it gets for a shooter. This isn’t the NBA where there’s a bunch of guys who will just pull up with a hand in their face on a contested shot, college is mostly about getting open looks.
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He's not underneath the guy on that play, either. It's a wide open look. He would've had to close out harder to get there and that'd be risking a foul. When you have length, it's much easier to close that gap after playing the passing lane. You're kinda open even when you're not when the defender is 5' 9". Zeigler is so so good on fighting around screens that his real value is in pass denial, but if the guy gets separation, the catch and shoot is a little easier.

I'm done arguing about this. It's like you guys are making me prove the general idea that being tall has intangible value, and I don't want to keep detracting from a guy who I don't disagree is the MVP. I shouldn't have done it in the first place.
 
#55
#55
n_huffhines said:
He's not underneath the guy on that play, either. It's a wide open look. He would've had to close out harder to get there and that'd be risking a foul. When you have length, it's much easier to close that gap after playing the passing lane. You're kinda open even when you're not when the defender is 5' 9". Zeigler is so so good on screens that his real value is pass denial, but if the guy gets separation, the catch and shoot is a little easier.

I'm done arguing about this. It's like you guys are making me prove the general idea that being tall intangibly helps in basketball, when this is a self-evident truth, and I don't want to keep detracting from a guy who I don't disagree is the MVP. I shouldn't have done it in the first place.
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#56
#56
n_huffhines said:
I just think short-guard thievery gets too much credit (generally speaking). The backbone of the D are the guys with size holding opponents to 34% from the field (1st in the NCAA). We're actually not good at creating turnovers (331st). Vescovi and Zeigler get steals for themselves, but big guards who trap people and create steals for others are the types of guys who make you a top turnovers team. He might be the emotional leader, but the other guys are the ones shutting scorers down and helping Zeigler when his size is a problem.
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Hmm… Would I rather have a 6’ 5” PG who’s as talented offensively and defensively as ZZ is as a sophomore? Of course. when’s the last time that happened for us? Those guys don’t stick around or just don’t come here in the 1st place.
 
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#57
#57
berryvol said:
You think coaches voted someone all SEC because “it’s easy to see that he’s trying so hard”? Wut?
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I think they thought he was worthy of it. He has a good defensive impact. But more than anything, coaches love effort. They reward effort. Zeigler tries so hard. Anybody can see it. He's at the point of attack, you notice him because he's small, and you notice how hard he's trying. Everybody notices it. That's what I meant by the "easy to see" part.
 
#58
#58
AllThingsTN said:
Woof. Would I rather have a 6’ 5” PG who’s as talented offensively and defensively as ZZ is as a sophomore? Of course… when’s the last time that happened for us? Those guys don’t stick around or just don’t come here in the 1st place.
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It's not about what I'd rather have. I love Zeigler. I'm not trying to trade him for anybody. He chose us. He's good. He's family.

It's just a conversation about present value.
 
#61
#61
n_huffhines said:
It's not about what I'd rather have. I love Zeigler. I'm not trying to trade him for anybody. He chose us. He's good. He's family.

It's just a conversation about present value.
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I didn’t read through the thread before quoting you. Saying you take his size into account on whether or not he is our teams MVP thus far just struck me as odd I suppose. I also disagree with some of your takes on his defense. But it’s all good. I see where you said you don’t want to argue it and neither do I. We just have a difference of opinion, and that’s okay.
 
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#62
#62
Actually the argument could be made for maybe 3 of those. I voted Zig just because of his accepting the point guard position responsibilities and working to become a great one. CLEARLY IMO SV and JJJ are the leaders of the team.
 
#64
#64
n_huffhines said:
Of course everybody gets help. But literally every opponent has a guard that can impose his physicality on Zeigler and get to the basket. Not many teams have a guy that can do that to Nkamhoua or JJJ, you know?
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In the Texas game a 6'7+ post got it down low with ZZ guarding him off a switch. ZZ shut him down and stole the ball. His defense is great.
 
#65
#65
Definition of MVP can vary, but IMO this team goes as far as JJJ takes them. When he’s on his game the Vols are pretty darn tough to beat.
 
#66
#66
n_huffhines said:
The point is I'm surprised Zeigler is running away with it so easily. I'm not even saying he's not the MVP. Like I said in OP, I think a lot of these guys have about the same value. Uros has flaws, of course. He's not even in the poll.
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Why? Since SEC play Zakai has been the most consistent player for UT. When Santi was out against State it was Zakai who stepped up. Nobody’s presence on the court is felt as much as Zakai’s. When he exits the game our offense loses fluidity. We don’t run with as much pace. The opposing team can finally catch a breath and somewhat run a competent offense.

Tyrese Hunter was arguably a top 3 freshman point guard in the country last year alongside Chandler. Zakai ate him alive Saturday.

Take Zakai out and you lose Santi as an off-ball scorer. Suddenly you lose a player that can break a press with his eyes closed. You lose arguably the one player we have that can make defenders pay for applying on-ball pressure.

As the season progresses I think this will become more obvious. This kid is flat out special.
 
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#67
#67
Zeigler at the moment but JJJ coming back got this team rolling at a high level. All of the players have made significant contributions which is unusual with such a large number of players in the rotation.
 
#68
#68
n_huffhines said:
He's not underneath the guy on that play, either. It's a wide open look. He would've had to close out harder to get there and that'd be risking a foul. When you have length, it's much easier to close that gap after playing the passing lane. You're kinda open even when you're not when the defender is 5' 9". Zeigler is so so good on fighting around screens that his real value is in pass denial, but if the guy gets separation, the catch and shoot is a little easier.

I'm done arguing about this. It's like you guys are making me prove the general idea that being tall has intangible value, and I don't want to keep detracting from a guy who I don't disagree is the MVP. I shouldn't have done it in the first place.
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I’m sorry but imo you are just completely wrong on this take…Tennessee currently has the #1 3pt defense by a wide margin, like by far the historically best there has ever been, if Ziegler’s man could just routinely get clean and “wide open” looks from 3 whenever he’s in the game, which is just about all of it, I don’t think there’s any way in which we’d be holding teams to that number.

Evan Miya whose performance rankings are strictly analytical, no “size” factored in, has Zeigler rated as the #5 defender in the country, that’s not because “he’s trying hard”. You listen to opposing coaches talk and they all tell you what a nightmare it is to go against him for an entire game and how you can’t duplicate in scout what it is he does.

To each their own, but man, I’ve not disagreed more many takes on VN than this one.
 
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#69
#69
johnfnkelly said:
Why? Since SEC play Zakai has been the most consistent player for UT. When Santi was out against State it was Zakai who stepped up. Nobody’s presence on the court is felt as much as Zakai’s. When he exits the game our offense loses fluidity. We don’t run with as much pace. The opposing team can finally catch a breath and somewhat run a competent offense.

Tyrese Hunter was arguably a top 3 freshman point guard in the country last year alongside Chandler. Zakai ate him alive Saturday.

Take Zakai out and you lose Santi as an off-ball scorer. Suddenly you lose a player that can break a press with his eyes closed. You lose arguably the one player we have that can make defenders pay for applying on-ball pressure.

As the season progresses I think this will become more obvious. This kid is flat out special.
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Although replaceability is a good way to look at it, and I don't think you're wrong about how irreplaceable he is, I don't think it's the same thing as total value. In baseball, they look at value over the average replacement, not your team's replacement. That's how I would look at it here. Not saying you are wrong, just saying it's different. We have guys to replace JJJ's and Nkamhoua's minutes if one of them goes down, and we'll be alright, but that's more about the rest of the roster than it is the players in question.

Also, Tyrese Hunter is averaging 8 and 3 on the road and he had 7 and 4 on Saturday. Seems like pretty normal play from him.
 
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#70
#70
bleedingTNorange said:
I’m sorry but imo you are just completely wrong on this take…Tennessee currently has the #1 3pt defense by a wide margin, like by far the historically best there has ever been, if Ziegler’s man could just routinely get clean and “wide open” looks from 3 whenever he’s in the game, which is just about all of it, I don’t think there’s any way in which we’d be holding teams to that number.

Evan Miya whose performance rankings are strictly analytical, no “size” factored in, has Zeigler rated as the #5 defender in the country, that’s not because “he’s trying hard”. You listen to opposing coaches talk and they all tell you what a nightmare it is to go against him for an entire game and how you can’t duplicate in scout what it is he does.

To each their own, but man, I’ve not disagreed more many takes on VN than this one.
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Well, I didn't say any of that is happening.
 
#73
#73
bleedingTNorange said:
Except you did…
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My problem is you saying that it's "routinely wide open...whenever he's in the game", which I did not say at all. That play specifically was wide open. It's just meant to be one example of many how a lack of length factors into a game, and we probably don't notice in real time. Ask yourself if you noticed in the moment.
 
#74
#74
n_huffhines said:
Well, I didn't say any of that is happening.
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This is a bit of a tired thread at this point, but I’ll contribute one observation. Your argument is based on typecasting ZZ as the pesky little guy who relies on steals. That’s not his MO, and that isn’t the team D style either. Look at his steals per game 2.4. Santi is 2.2. The team is 9.4. That isn’t a team bent on steals. It’s a team that is forcing bad shots, and late clock shots, deflecting balls, and getting some steals. Last I looked ZZ and Santi were each top 20 in steals. Look at the shooting percentages of his man in any game 3 or 2. He’s a defensive strength against shooters, tall and short. He doesn’t do this by blocking shots, he does it by disrupting their rhythm, crowding them, denying them clean looks and generally making them miserable. He’s literally one of the best on ball defenders in the country. He looks like a guy that would live and die on steals, foul too much, and have a hard time guarding shooters, but he’s not.
 
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#75
#75
Stoerner Fumbles said:
This is a bit of a tired thread at this point, but I’ll contribute one observation. Your argument is based on typecasting ZZ as the pesky little guy who relies on steals. That’s not his MO, and that isn’t the team D style either. Look at his steals per game 2.4. Santi is 2.2. The team is 9.4. That isn’t a team bent on steals. It’s a team that is forcing bad shots, and late clock shots, deflecting balls, and getting some steals. Last I looked ZZ and Santi were each top 20 in steals. Look at the shooting percentages of his man in any game 3 or 2. He’s a defensive strength against shooters, tall and short. He doesn’t do this by blocking shots, he does it by disrupting their rhythm, crowding them, denying them clean looks and generally making them miserable. He’s literally one of the best on ball defenders in the country. He looks like a guy that would live and die on steals, foul too much, and have a hard time guarding shooters, but he’s not.
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I don't think they are a team bent on steals. At one point I mentioned we were 331st in turnovers forced. We are 1st in FG% and 3p% allowed and that is 100% a team thing, which Zeigler is a big part of, and gets more recognition than anybody else. He deserves a lot of credit...but if the backline were average, we'd be giving up a pretty average FG%.

Zeigler gets screened at the top of the key, the help hedges and then when Zeigler gets back in position, recovers, and this works because the help is long and quick enough to show and recover. Most of our forwards can do this at a high level. We don't have to play it safe and drop every time or blitz too much because we have the personnel to play it right.
 
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