War in Ukraine

#47,076
#47,076
LouderVol said:
Shock and Awe hit military targets. I would hardly consider taking out civilian internet and power a war crime.

Considering we havent done the first two in 80 years, and the third in 50 years it seems like we figured out those were bad, and we stopped. So you dont have a moral high ground to stand on here.

And I dont see the wide spread rape going on like Russia has. And we policed those fairly well ourselves. Over the last decade 2010-2020, there were 3300ish cases with 1200ish convictions. I am sure some guilty got away, and some innocent got found guilty, military court doesnt work like civilian courts. You think Russia will get anywhere close to that ratio? Reflections on Court-Martial Numbers
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A large majority of the deaths in Iraq were civilians.

Armies have always raped, even ours. When you read about the Battle of Okinawa, our soldiers raped a lot of women and girls. When Germany was being defeated during WWII, the Russians, Ukrainians, Americans, French, British, and others raped countless German women and girls.

If you read Iris Chang's book The Rape of Nanking about imperial Japan's atrocities in China and Nick Turse's book Kill Anything That Moves about American atrocities in Vietnam, the books are so similar that Chang's family could've sued Turse for plagiarism if the book had been a novel, but since Turse's book is historical fact corroborated by Vietnamese and American eyewitnesses, it's more of a case of history repeating itself. There were so many rapes in Vietnam, that the cousin of Richard Ramirez, the American serial killer known as "The Night Stalker," didn't even rate a mention. When Richard was 11-years-old, his older cousin, a decorated war hero and Green Beret showed Richard a shoebox full of Polaroid images of him raping Vietnamese females with other photos of him holding the decapitated heads of those same women and girls. And we wonder why the USA has so much violent crime, and why Richard turned out the way he did.

During the war in Iraq, the reports and photos that came out of Abu Ghraib were absolutely revolting. It was systematic sexual rape and torture. Men were raped by other men and with objects. I saw one photo, and you can find it on Google Images if you turn off safe mode, of a large group of prisoners being forced by Americans to give each other blow jobs. There were reports of female prisoners being impregnated with rape babies fathered by Americans, and some of these women were murdered by their families in honor killings after being released. There were reports of children being raped, boys and girls alike. Keep in mind too that there were photos that weren't released that were apparently even worse than the ones that were.

The Russians should be ashamed of themselves for raping people in Ukraine. It seems like it's on a similar scale to American rapes of Koreans during the Korean War rather than what Russians did in Berlin, or what Americans did in Vietnam.
 
#47,081
#47,081
JuicyBrucey said:
A large majority of the deaths in Iraq were civilians.

Armies have always raped, even ours. When you read about the Battle of Okinawa, our soldiers raped a lot of women and girls. When Germany was being defeated during WWII, the Russians, Ukrainians, Americans, French, British, and others raped countless German women and girls.

If you read Iris Chang's book The Rape of Nanking about imperial Japan's atrocities in China and Nick Turse's book Kill Anything That Moves about American atrocities in Vietnam, the books are so similar that Chang's family could've sued Turse for plagiarism if the book had been a novel, but since Turse's book is historical fact corroborated by Vietnamese and American eyewitnesses, it's more of a case of history repeating itself. There were so many rapes in Vietnam, that the cousin of Richard Ramirez, the American serial killer known as "The Night Stalker," didn't even rate a mention. When Richard was 11-years-old, his older cousin, a decorated war hero and Green Beret showed Richard a shoebox full of Polaroid images of him raping Vietnamese females with other photos of him holding the decapitated heads of those same women and girls. And we wonder why the USA has so much violent crime, and why Richard turned out the way he did.

During the war in Iraq, the reports and photos that came out of Abu Ghraib were absolutely revolting. It was systematic sexual rape and torture. Men were raped by other men and with objects. I saw one photo, and you can find it on Google Images if you turn off safe mode, of a large group of prisoners being forced by Americans to give each other blow jobs. There were reports of female prisoners being impregnated with rape babies fathered by Americans, and some of these women were murdered by their families in honor killings after being released. There were reports of children being raped, boys and girls alike. Keep in mind too that there were photos that weren't released that were apparently even worse than the ones that were.

The Russians should be ashamed of themselves for raping people in Ukraine. It seems like it's on a similar scale to American rapes of Koreans during the Korean War rather than what Russians did in Berlin, or what Americans did in Vietnam.
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And I covered all of that. It was 50 years ago for Vietnam, 80 for WW2. I dont judge the current US or current Russia on the scale of past atrocities. Not sure why you guys rely on that. I wasnt even born during either of those two, so trying to assign blame or guilt of those events to me falls well short of your intention of getting me to back off of what current Russia is doing.

If you go look at any of the threads revolving around those other wars that happened recently, I would even throw in Syria amongst others for our war crimes, you will find plenty of posts calling out our actions and being against our involvement. Even in the cases you mention some soldiers faced charges. Was it 100% of those invovled? Of course not, that would be impossible. But stop acting like our government was ok with it.

Bad is bad. Laying down red herrings in this thread is pure deflection to avoid dealing with the issues. If you want to complain about America in X country or conflict, go find the thread, or create one. This one is about Russia in Ukraine. If we also had troops there you would maybe have an argument, but we dont, so you dont. Both sides can be bad, and it doesnt negate calling out bad when it happens, no matter who does it.

By your argument our rapes in vietnam shouldnt be mentioned because of the Russians in Berlin, or Japaense in Nanking. Pointing out history is just a circular argument because everyone is guilty. If we want it to stop or change, everyone needs to call out/not support or distract from the current cases like you guys are doing. The past is the past, let's focus on making today better.

And for what littles it's worth I would point to the Japanese experimentation on civilians and POWs in WW2 as the worst case. Even worse than Nanking. Ita amazing how far down the list of well known WW2 warcrimes you would have to go before you get to the experiments. Our internment camps will get brought up before those experiments.
 
#47,082
#47,082
apevol said:
comparing countries sending their boys to participate in a foreign war for the US with whats going on in ukraine is a non starter
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You asked how it turned out for South Korea and I gave you an answer. You didn't like it and now you're acting weird about it.
 
#47,083
#47,083
JuicyBrucey said:
You asked how it turned out for South Korea and I gave you an answer. You didn't like it and now you're acting weird about it.
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Your answer was silly. You clearly tried to deflect from how much better off South Korea is as a result of us not letting Kim annex it.
 
#47,084
#47,084
LouderVol said:
And I covered all of that. It was 50 years ago for Vietnam, 80 for WW2. I dont judge the current US or current Russia on the scale of past atrocities. Not sure why you guys rely on that. I wasnt even born during either of those two, so trying to assign blame or guilt of those events to me falls well short of your intention of getting me to back off of what current Russia is doing.

If you go look at any of the threads revolving around those other wars that happened recently, I would even throw in Syria amongst others for our war crimes, you will find plenty of posts calling out our actions and being against our involvement. Even in the cases you mention some soldiers faced charges. Was it 100% of those invovled? Of course not, that would be impossible. But stop acting like our government was ok with it.

Bad is bad. Laying down red herrings in this thread is pure deflection to avoid dealing with the issues. If you want to complain about America in X country or conflict, go find the thread, or create one. This one is about Russia in Ukraine. If we also had troops there you would maybe have an argument, but we dont, so you dont. Both sides can be bad, and it doesnt negate calling out bad when it happens, no matter who does it.

By your argument our rapes in vietnam shouldnt be mentioned because of the Russians in Berlin, or Japaense in Nanking. Pointing out history is just a circular argument because everyone is guilty. If we want it to stop or change, everyone needs to call out/not support or distract from the current cases like you guys are doing. The past is the past, let's focus on making today better.

And for what littles it's worth I would point to the Japanese experimentation on civilians and POWs in WW2 as the worst case. Even worse than Nanking. Ita amazing how far down the list of well known WW2 warcrimes you would have to go before you get to the experiments. Our internment camps will get brought up before those experiments.
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All of the rapes should be mentioned. They happened then, they happen now. Like all wars, this one includes rape. There are reports of Russian troops raping ethnic Ukrainians and Ukrainian troops raping ethnic Russians. Of course, the latter isn't reported in mainstream American media as the reporting on this war is heavily censored in the USA, though to a lesser extent than Germany who actually sentenced a journalist to three years in prison for giving a voice to local residents in the war zone. You pretty much have to go to Rumble or foreign media (not German media, obviously) to access interviews of locals that run counter to the narrative presented in the American media. In countries where freedom of speech and freedom of press are actually practiced instead of boasted about, a more nuanced and accurate picture of the war is presented, with Russia, Ukraine, and the USA all looking like **** in rather equal proportions.
 
#47,085
#47,085
LouderVol said:
And I covered all of that. It was 50 years ago for Vietnam, 80 for WW2. I dont judge the current US or current Russia on the scale of past atrocities. Not sure why you guys rely on that. I wasnt even born during either of those two, so trying to assign blame or guilt of those events to me falls well short of your intention of getting me to back off of what current Russia is doing.

If you go look at any of the threads revolving around those other wars that happened recently, I would even throw in Syria amongst others for our war crimes, you will find plenty of posts calling out our actions and being against our involvement. Even in the cases you mention some soldiers faced charges. Was it 100% of those invovled? Of course not, that would be impossible. But stop acting like our government was ok with it.

Bad is bad. Laying down red herrings in this thread is pure deflection to avoid dealing with the issues. If you want to complain about America in X country or conflict, go find the thread, or create one. This one is about Russia in Ukraine. If we also had troops there you would maybe have an argument, but we dont, so you dont. Both sides can be bad, and it doesnt negate calling out bad when it happens, no matter who does it.

By your argument our rapes in vietnam shouldnt be mentioned because of the Russians in Berlin, or Japaense in Nanking. Pointing out history is just a circular argument because everyone is guilty. If we want it to stop or change, everyone needs to call out/not support or distract from the current cases like you guys are doing. The past is the past, let's focus on making today better.

And for what littles it's worth I would point to the Japanese experimentation on civilians and POWs in WW2 as the worst case. Even worse than Nanking. Ita amazing how far down the list of well known WW2 warcrimes you would have to go before you get to the experiments. Our internment camps will get brought up before those experiments.
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I don't see this as nothing other than normal warfare. Not sure what the problem is to be honest.

I dont judge the current US or current Russia on the scale of past atrocities.
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Obviously because to look into the mirror is very hard for most people to do.

At the end of the day this is just normal warfare, if people don't like it... well, too bad.

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#47,086
#47,086
JuicyBrucey said:
In countries where freedom of speech and freedom of press are actually practiced instead of boasted about, a more nuanced and accurate picture of the war is presented, with Russia, Ukraine, and the USA all looking like **** in rather equal proportions.
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Gonna need some examples
 
#47,087
#47,087
tvolsfan said:
Your answer was silly. You clearly tried to deflect from how much better off South Korea is as a result of us not letting Kim annex it.
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You actually think Kim Il-sung would've annexed South Korea if Park hadn't rented us some troops to go burn down villages and rape a bunch of girls for us in Vietnam? I've never heard that theory before, but at least it's an original idea, which is pretty rare on American political forums.
 
#47,092
#47,092
volgr said:
Exactly. If this was what the trolls in this thread try and portray it to be, Russia would have taken Ukraine in 2014, not just Crimea. Instead they gave diplomacy a chance for 8 years, giving Ukraine time to become a Western trained, financed and armed force.
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So you are saying that if you want your neighbor's yard and don't take it when the first urge hits that waiting a few years is restraint? Restraint rather than theft because you waited a bit?
 
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#47,095
#47,095
I know that sounds like a joke, but that's why everyone is making note of it. It was a gigantic waste, with no strategic value. They may not have all been hypersonic, but there is plenty of video floating around of cruise missiles coming and going.
 
#47,097
#47,097
tvolsfan said:
Gonna need some examples
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It's actually quite rare in most countries to get banned from social media or face penalties from your own government for reporting on the war in Ukraine. The UK government put sanctions on one of its own citizens, Graham Phillips, for his journalism in Ukraine. Germany sentenced a German citizen, Alina Lipp, to three years in prison, seized her assets, and even seized her father's assets because she interviewed locals in a war zone. The Ukrainian and Russian governments have arrested and killed numerous journalists. In the USA and on American media platforms, you have to stick to the US government's narrative on the war in Ukraine or get banned the same way even doctors and virologists got censored and banned for providing counterpoints to the US government's narrative on the coronavirus. And this isn't the first war where people have faced punishments over journalism. Our government has gone to great lengths to imprison Julian Assange for journalism regarding the war in Iraq when, love him or hate him, nobody can say he didn't present only the facts. A lot of people should've gone to prison after he exposed so many criminals, but the American government goes after him instead and he's currently in a British prison.
 
#47,098
#47,098
Putin to sit down with security chiefs TODAY to plot revenge for Crimea bridge blast after branding it a 'terror attack' by Ukraine as supporters call for despot to 'stop talking' and 'painfully beat' Kyiv - but Kremlin denies planning nuclear retaliation

Vladimir Putin will sit down with security chiefs today as he plots a revenge plan for the Crimea bridge blast that he branded a 'terror attack' by Ukraine.

Supporters of the Russian president have called on the despot to 'stop talking' and 'painfully beat' the Kyiv regime ahead of his Security Council meeting today, despite the Kremlin playing down fears of a nuclear response.

63271877-11296677-A_view_shows_a_fire_on_the_Kerch_bridge_in_the_Kerch_Strait_Crim-a-11_1665338523799.jpg

A view shows a fire on the Kerch bridge in the Kerch Strait, Crimea, October 8, 2022, in this screen grab from a handout video

63251759-11296155-The_Kerch_Bridge_is_the_only_direct_link_between_Russia_and_Crim-a-25_1665301865298.jpg

The Kerch Bridge is the only direct link between Russia and Crimea and is a crucial supply line for Russian forces in Ukraine

Putin to sit down with security chiefs TODAY to plot revenge for Crimea bridge blast | Daily Mail Online
 
#47,099
#47,099
JuicyBrucey said:
You actually think Kim Il-sung would've annexed South Korea if Park hadn't rented us some troops to go burn down villages and rape a bunch of girls for us in Vietnam? I've never heard that theory before, but at least it's an original idea, which is pretty rare on American political forums.
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Oh, I thought the discussion was about US involvement in Korea. I read the original post incorrectly.
 
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