Gun control debate (merged)

[allvol123]

Alcohol kills 80k a year.

Ban worthy?

Sex kills….oh wait….nevermind.

 

[volinbham]

I'm just gonna throw this out there for discussion and probably disappear... extensive jurisprudence exists allowing restrictions on speech, assembly, and exercise of religious practices in certain circumstances. We don't have regular debates about those. Why are firearms different?

there are plenty of restrictions on exercise of the 2nd Amendment. not sure how firearms are different.

also, we have regular debates on the 1st Amendment all the time - the whole notion of hate speech, the role of the government, etc.

there were plenty of debates on freedom of assembly and exercise of religious practices during Covid shutdowns.

I'm not sure what you're seeing

 

[luthervol]

Interesting
States with the most gun violence share one trait - CNNPolitics
There are indeed a horrific number of gun deaths in Chicago each year. CNN has covered the problem.
But there are more gun deaths in Texas, by far, than in any other state, according to data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Texas suffered 4,164 gun deaths in 2020, the most recent year for which the CDC has published data.
That's a rate of 14.2 deaths per 100,000 Texans.
California, by comparison, saw 3,449 deaths, a gun death rate of 8.5.
Texas does not have the highest gun death rate, however. Far from it.
The top states by gun death rates are:

• Mississippi -- 28.6.
• Louisiana -- 26.3.
• Wyoming -- 25.9.
• Missouri -- 23.9.
• Alabama -- 23.6.
• Alaska -- 23.5.

Are they all red states?
Do they all have lax gun laws?

 

[DC_Vol]

We have restrictions on firearms , more than any other right , even though the constitution specifically says “Shall not be infringed upon on “ only on this one right .

I’ve never had to go apply for a free speech permit.

 

[sonofUT62]

The reluctance of so many is telling.
I would guess that people raised in a rural environment view guns differently.
That's completely understandable.

The people who live in Urban areas view guns much differently. They’re much less likely to register/ legally own them.

 

[clarksvol00]

Actually we do NOT allow those things to be restricted either unless they present an imminent threat of bodily harm. The mere possession of a firearm does NOT cross that boundary

Are you sure about that?

 

[Vol Main]

It became fashionable to lump damn near any semi-auto with furniture of a certain look into the term "assault rifle". It's a kind of newspeakish approach for demonization purposes. It segues nicely into the even more newspeakish "assault weapon" which many attribute, at least in really bringing to the fore, to a Josh Sugarmann who had this to say.

"Assault weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi automatic assault weapons anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons."

To their credit it's been a pretty successful campaign. There's untold numbers of people out there that genuinely believe the AR in AR-15 mean "Assault Rifle".

When I bought a Daewoo K-2 semiautomatic 5.56mm rifle many years ago, the nomenclature stamped on the box by the manufacturer said, "Assault Rifle." So it is not correct to exclusively blame the change in meaning to gun ignorant libtards.

 

[luthervol]

When I bought a Daewoo K-2 semiautomatic 5.56mm rifle many years ago, the nomenclature stamped on the box by the manufacturer said, "Assault Rifle." So it is not correct to exclusively blame the change in meaning to gun ignorant libtards.

They clearly understand the marketing value of them being viewed as assault weapons.

 

[Vol Main]

I've got one: To have as close to matching fire power as I can to government officials.

Are you in the drug business? Got ten wives? Is there a valid reason for your being so afraid of the government?

 

[volinbham]

Interesting
States with the most gun violence share one trait - CNNPolitics
There are indeed a horrific number of gun deaths in Chicago each year. CNN has covered the problem.
But there are more gun deaths in Texas, by far, than in any other state, according to data from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Texas suffered 4,164 gun deaths in 2020, the most recent year for which the CDC has published data.
That's a rate of 14.2 deaths per 100,000 Texans.
California, by comparison, saw 3,449 deaths, a gun death rate of 8.5.
Texas does not have the highest gun death rate, however. Far from it.
The top states by gun death rates are:

• Mississippi -- 28.6.
• Louisiana -- 26.3.
• Wyoming -- 25.9.
• Missouri -- 23.9.
• Alabama -- 23.6.
• Alaska -- 23.5.

Are they all red states?
Do they all have lax run laws?

Interesting writing in that article - they move between deaths per 100K and total as it suits the story. For example they say yes Chicago has a lot of deaths but Texas has more (city vs state comparison). Texas has 14.2 per 100K; Illinois is almost identical at 14.1 per 100K (CDC)

Michigan is higher than Texas.

Delaware is higher than Texas.

Nevada is higher than Texas.

Colorado is higher than Texas.

Of course Texas has more total than Illinois - it's over twice as populated. No surprise Texas has the most total deaths as it is the second largest state in the country. Yes California (the one state larger), is doing better.

These types of simple conclusions on a highly complex problem are just more tribal fodder but don't help us find solutions.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Are you sure about that?

We allow very limited restrictions on speech (mostly commercial) and religious activities. I would argue that most of our restrictions on assembly are unconstitutional. Unless any of these actions incite or directly contribute to violence, they are (or should be) sacrosanct

 

[Vol Main]

They clearly understand the marketing value of them being viewed as assault weapons.

I did not even notice the nomenclature on the box until after I got it home.

 

[YankeeVol]

When I bought a Daewoo K-2 semiautomatic 5.56mm rifle many years ago, the nomenclature stamped on the box by the manufacturer said, "Assault Rifle." So it is not correct to exclusively blame the change in meaning to gun ignorant libtards.

Well the problem there is you bought some Korean knock off

 

[clarksvol00]

there are plenty of restrictions on exercise of the 2nd Amendment. not sure how firearms are different.

also, we have regular debates on the 1st Amendment all the time - the whole notion of hate speech, the role of the government, etc.

there were plenty of debates on freedom of assembly and exercise of religious practices during Covid shutdowns.

I'm not sure what you're seeing

I'm saying that the right to bear arms is seen as inviolate but others aren't. If my religion forbids me from cutting my hair or beard, but the Fire Department says that interferes with my ability to wear a respirator, do they still have to hire me as a firefighter who has to wear a respirator?

 

[Weezer]

Are you in the drug business? Got ten wives? Is there a valid reason for your being so afraid of the government?

Why would we not be afraid of a government that continuously seeks to grow its power at the cost of our liberties?

 

[hndog609]

When I bought a Daewoo K-2 semiautomatic 5.56mm rifle many years ago, the nomenclature stamped on the box by the manufacturer said, "Assault Rifle." So it is not correct to exclusively blame the change in meaning to gun ignorant libtards.

You've literally just given a jewel of an example of what I was referencing when I said "To their credit it's been a pretty successful campaign. There's untold numbers of people out there that genuinely believe the AR in AR-15 mean "Assault Rifle"."

 

[Vol8188]

I know you are trying to say something, but other than the 3% statistic, I do not see your point, if there is a point. Are you implying that the victims of mass murder by assault rifles are statistically insignificant so we should continue accepting them? Not trying to put words in your mouth, but what are you saying if not that?

Banning assualt rifles will not stop mass murders. Perps will use other weapons. But the fuzz and anyone handy with a gun will be far more effective defending against less effective weapons.

Who owns the majority of weapons in the US to include the majority of AR15s? And are those the people committing these crimes at disproportionate rates?

If not, how are the two things correlated?

 

[Vol8188]

Are you in the drug business? Got ten wives? Is there a valid reason for your being so afraid of the government?

History

 

[0nelilreb]

Are you in the drug business? Got ten wives? Is there a valid reason for your being so afraid of the government?

Are you not afraid of the federal government ? Name another entity that can destroy your life and the lives of anyone you know on a whim .

 

[GroverCleveland]

Beto actually went to Kent State and argued that only the government could be trusted with high powered rifles. He’s so stoned/stupid that the irony never dawned on him.

He has a remarkable ability to show up in the wrong place, at the wrong time and say the wrong thing. Uncanny really.

 

[luthervol]

Interesting writing in that article - they move between deaths per 100K and total as it suits the story. For example they say yes Chicago has a lot of deaths but Texas has more (city vs state comparison). Texas has 14.2 per 100K; Illinois is almost identical at 14.1 per 100K (CDC)

Michigan is higher than Texas.

Delaware is higher than Texas.

Nevada is higher than Texas.

Colorado is higher than Texas.

Of course Texas has more total than Illinois - it's over twice as populated. No surprise Texas has the most total deaths as it is the second largest state in the country. Yes California (the one state larger), is doing better.

These types of simple conclusions on a highly complex problem are just more tribal fodder but don't help us find solutions.

They used homicides per 100k. What's unfair about that? It's the exact same data given by nation that was being discussed earlier.

TX is in between South Sudan and Guyana

 

[clarksvol00]

We allow very limited restrictions on speech (mostly commercial) and religious activities. I would argue that most of our restrictions on assembly are unconstitutional. Unless any of these actions incite or directly contribute to violence, they are (or should be) sacrosanct

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

If the military decides they want to kill civilians then you are dead either way. Maybe you take a few with you, but it won't matter

So that’s why we shouldn’t have guns? Man you sound like you belong in Cuba or North Korea.

 

[volinbham]

I'm saying that the right to bear arms is seen as inviolate but others aren't. If my religion forbids me from cutting my hair or beard, but the Fire Department says that interferes with my ability to wear a respirator, do they still have to hire me as a firefighter who has to wear a respirator?

the right to free speech is seen as inviolate but there are restrictions
the right to assembly is seen as inviolate but there are restrictions
the right to bear arms is seen as inviolate but there are restrictions

I've seen no one say there should be no restrictions whatsoever on bearing arms and I'd argue it's more restricted than the 1st

1) some people are completely barred from it (not so with the 1st)
2) many locations ban bearing arms but not nearly as much with the 1st
3) there are background checks, permits, waiting periods, capacity restrictions, function restrictions etc

Almost all 2A advocates accept these restrictions.

Both the 1A and 2A restrictions are debated. If you are suggesting 2A advocates are wary of even more restrictions I'd argue that's no different than 1A advocates being wary of even more restrictions.

I really don't see this distinction you are trying to draw.

If my state says Constitutional Carry is allowed but my business says I can't carry on the job how is that any different than your beard example?

 

[Vol Main]

Maybe you can help me. If the problem is guns, why do white Americans own more guns but commit less homicides and are less likely to commit a mass shooting than black Americans? If the problem is the guns, shouldn’t white people have better stats?

Yet the white homicide rate is on par with Canada and the UK. How do you square that away with your view that guns are the problem?

First, parts of your assertion are not quite accurate, but some are, more or less. I doubt that our White homicide rates are on par with UK and Canada. I read an article arguing that the ethnicity of a community is the most reliable predictor of murder rates, with Black, Hispanic, White, Asian being the high to low. Not sure how accurate that is. Ever looked at the murder rates in Wyoming? About Whites being less likely to commit a mass shooting, I thought white males were in the lead on that category.