Gun control debate (merged)

[luthervol]

People who want to kill themselves will find a way. I had a relative slit her wrists but her husband came home early and found her so that attempt failed. She just waited for things to calm down and hung herself in a coat closet where no one would look for her. There aren't too many methods of suicide that you can call for a redo while in the process.

Facts About Suicide.
The good news is that more than 90% of people who attempt suicide and survive never go on to die by suicide.9

 

[LouderVol]

But you can keep and bear arms which is what was guaranteed.

So if you were limited to one vote, you would be fine? Or five since that was your arbitrary number. You could only vote in five local elections. Your right to vote is protected, correct?

And it's too dangerous to let you vote in national elections, it's just a rational and reasonable to make sure you dont have access to any high capacity elections.

Same standard across the board or its infringement.

 

[Vol8188]

I've seen that claim before. The more you read, the more nonsense it becomes. For one he doesn't actually compare it race when claiming it's the best predictor but only to measures of poverty and drug abuse. The other issue is that most murders in this country are no between people of varying economic status but rather poor black people killing other poor black people.

Even your own article seems to state that this one specific professor is the only person pushing this idea.

The other obvious issue with this claim is that the poorest areas (not the areas with the most inequality) have the highest homicide rates.

Do you intend on defending your earlier claims that white and black Americans of low income commit homicide at similar rates? If they do not, your claims of guns and poverty being the problem seem to really be falling apart fast.

@luthervol why do you keep running away? I thought us ignorant republicans just didn’t understand the issue here

 

[McDad]

Probably the third or fourth.

I read every message you posted in the thread going back to the discussion on constitutionality. It was the second post where you added 'social disadvantage'. You have since referenced it again and inserted 'real' and 'perceived' to the discussion.

 

[Vol8188]

Facts About Suicide.
The good news is that more than 90% of people who attempt suicide and survive never go on to die by suicide.9

Such a weird stance that guns are related to suicides. Who do you think is more likely to own a gun between white and black Americans?

 

[McDad]

Such a weird stance that guns are related to suicides. Who do you think is more likely to own a gun between white and black Americans?

If you don't mind me commenting, you had the debate going your way when yall were discussing the race/economic comparisons to other countries. The conversation is now shifted to suicide in an attempt (I think) to shift focus away from the lost debate on the previous discussion.

 

[luthervol]

The Australians had a gun problem with in a portion of their culture and got rid of guns. The gun violence went down but the knife and blunt instrument problem shot up (pun intended) the murder rate was unchanged. That’s because they’re not trying to solve a problem. They’re trying to subjugate their people.

False
Gun Control in Australia, Updated - FactCheck.org
In fact, the most recent government report on crime trends in Australia says, “Homicide in Australia has declined over the last 25 years. The current homicide incidence rate is the lowest on record in the past 25 years.”

Actually, Australian crime statistics show a marked decrease in homicides since the gun law change. According to the Australian Institute of Criminology, a government agency, the number of homicides in Australia did increase slightly in 1997 and peaked in 1999, but has since declined to the lowest number on record in 2007, the most recent year for which official figures are available.”

 

[Vol8188]

If you don't mind me commenting, you had the debate going your way when yall were discussing the race/economic comparisons to other countries. The conversation is now shifted to suicide in an attempt (I think) to shift focus away from the lost debate on the previous discussion.

I agree, that's why he stopped responding to that argument and told me to go look up the data for myself that he claims to have seen, but I have a point that relates back giving the direction he goes on this.

 

[luthervol]

So you believe suicide is worsened by guns yet suicide is low and much lower than Asian countries without guns?

How do you reconcile this?

Because the reasons for attempting suicide and the method chosen are two COMPETELY different things.

 

[luthervol]

I read every message you posted in the thread going back to the discussion on constitutionality. It was the second post where you added 'social disadvantage'. You have since referenced it again and inserted 'real' and 'perceived' to the discussion.

And?

 

[Vol8188]

Because the reasons for attempting suicide and the method chosen are two COMPETELY different things.

So if you concede on reasons, it would seems you're agree gun ownership is not corelated with suicide.

We also seem to agree it's not corelated with homicide either.

So why is gun control your solution to either of these issues?

 

[LouderVol]

Nonsense. Look at attempted suicides. What percent of the people who attempt suicide never actually commit suicide at a later time? What percent of suicide attempts in the US involve the use of a gun? Break it down by male and female. Break it down further by "successful" and "unsuccessful" attempts.
You cannot look at and even remotely understand the data and make the claim you just made.

Well there is a big distinction in suicides between attempts.

Most people who commit suicide had tried before.

And depending on your definition of attempt there us a pretty big difference. Does holding a gun and thinking about pulling the trigger count? Or is the attempt only when you pull the trigger? Put themselves into a posistion where they could jump/poison/harm themselves, or actual did jump/poison/harm themself, but not successfully kill themself?

 

[luthervol]

So if you concede on reasons, it would seems you're agree gun ownership is not corelated with suicide.

We also seem to agree it's not corelated with homicide either.

So why is gun control your solution to either of these issues?

My point was that suicide attempts using guns are far more "successful" than other suicide attempts.
90% of people who attempt suicide but fail, do not die from a future suicide attempt.

Can you put those two facts together on your own?

 

[Vol8188]

Well there is a big distinction in suicides between attempts.

Most people who commit suicide had tried before.

And depending on your definition of attempt there us a pretty big difference. Does holding a gun and thinking about pulling the trigger count? Or is the attempt only when you pull the trigger? Put themselves into a posistion where they could jump/poison/harm themselves, or actual did jump/poison/harm themself, but not successfully kill themself?

I think he believes the fact that men commit suicide at a higher rate but women attempt suicide at a higher rate is a matter of guns. The issue (and the reason he refuses to directly state his position or provide data on it) is that this is true across countries.

Male suicide rates are always higher, in every country. Female attempts are always higher.

 

[Vol8188]

My point was that suicide attempts using guns are far more "successful" than other suicide attempts.
90% of people who attempt suicide but fail, do not die from a future suicide attempt.

Can you put those two facts together on your own?

Is that how we determine laws? If bleach suicide success rates are higher than Tylenol should we ban bleach?

 

[McDad]

I agree, that's why he stopped responding to that argument and told me to go look up the data for myself that he claims to have seen, but I have a point that relates back giving the direction he goes on this.

The data and the link he is offering now on Austrialian homicides is skewed and cherry picked. It is unfortunate this is his go to tactic.

 

[InVOLuntary]

"You can't argue logic with the illogical. "

-some smart dude.

 

[McDad]

The Myth That Australia's Gun Laws Reduced Gun Homicides | Ryan McMaken
A Trend in Falling Rates
As noted by legal scholar Michael Tonry:

There is now general agreement, at least for developed English-speaking countries and western Europe, that homicide patterns have moved in parallel since the 1950s. The precise timing of the declines has varied, but the common pattern is apparent. Homicide rates increased substantially from various dates in the 1960s, peaked in the early 1990s or slightly later, and have since fallen substantially.​

This was certainly the case in the United States. US homicides hit a 51-year low in 2014, falling to a level not seen since 1963. This followed the general trend: peaking in the early 1990s and then going into steep decline. And yet, we can't point to any new national gun control measure that we can then claim caused the decline. In fact, the data suggests gun ownership increased significantly during this period.

 

[Vol8188]

False
Gun Control in Australia, Updated - FactCheck.org
In fact, the most recent government report on crime trends in Australia says, “Homicide in Australia has declined over the last 25 years. The current homicide incidence rate is the lowest on record in the past 25 years.”

Actually, Australian crime statistics show a marked decrease in homicides since the gun law change. According to the Australian Institute of Criminology, a government agency, the number of homicides in Australia did increase slightly in 1997 and peaked in 1999, but has since declined to the lowest number on record in 2007, the most recent year for which official figures are available.”

Complete revisionist history. There was a greater drop in homicide in Australia before the ban than after the 1996 "gun ban". The rates from 96-2000 are nearly unchanged with some of those years being higher than 1996. Yet there was a much more drastic drop in homicides from 1991-1992.

t

 

[LouderVol]

How many guns do you know?

It's only the black ones he doesnt like...

 

[Majors]

If you don't mind me commenting, you had the debate going your way when yall were discussing the race/economic comparisons to other countries. The conversation is now shifted to suicide in an attempt (I think) to shift focus away from the lost debate on the previous discussion.

Luther took a slight pivot and get away from mass shootings, gun violence to sidebar about suicides.

 

[joevol33]

That's just absurd. Daily gun violence is a huge issue, much larger than the mass shootings. That's why the rational and reasonable gun regulations I support are geared more to addressing those specific issues.

Those massive daily shooting numbers are mostly done by people who aren't allowed to have a gun anyway. So how will more regulations stop them?

 

[Majors]

Just a glimpse of the last few days in Atlanta in regards to day to day gun violence.

Crime

 

[hog88]

That's just absurd. Daily gun violence is a huge issue, much larger than the mass shootings. That's why the rational and reasonable gun regulations I support are geared more to addressing those specific issues.

No they’re not otherwise in states with strict regulation there would be less shootings than in states with more liberal regulations.

 

[hog88]

So the economic and socially disenfranchised gang banger is buying 5 guns a day?

And if we just enact universal BGCs that gangbanger won’t be able to but any….