War in Ukraine

#30,952
#30,952
DonjoVol said:
Then Ukraine should have been free to have a relationship with Russia when Yanukovych was president. After all he was elected fair and square. Donetsk and Luhansk should have its independence.

These are examples of personal choice and freedom. Are you for freedom and choice? Or only freedom and choice you agree with?
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1. He ran on joining the west. His own quotes said so. The Ukrainian President's Big Broken Promise
2. His own supreme court had already rejected one of his previous elections in 2004, so it's not like he was squeaky clean to start.
3. He got rescued by Russian special forces. That implies the Russians were fairly invovled if they are willing to invest their military forces in a foreign nation to back their candidate.
 
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#30,954
#30,954
MontyPython said:
"My guy", eh? Pretty sure he ain't my guy.

The COVID shutdown brought about a bunch of crazy ass loss of liberty crap that most of us despised. This didn't make the US or Canada communist playbook players.
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Pretty common tactic when the actual argument falls short, pin you as supporting the 'bad' guy and pretend to have the high ground. That you have no actual support for that guy isn't important, it's the accusation that matters. He's with me or against me, no disagreements or independent thought allowed.
 
#30,957
#30,957
Septic said:
You really don't realize how ridiculous you sound, do you?
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If Ukraine is winning and the Russian military is as incompetent as you guys say it is then it's safe to assume that Ukraine doesn't need any help. They are doing just fine on their own.
 
#30,959
#30,959
DonjoVol said:
If Ukraine is winning and the Russian military is as incompetent as you guys say it is then it's safe to assume that Ukraine doesn't need any help. They are doing just fine on their own.
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:rolleyes:

Non sequitur.

Ukraine absolutely needs western support to *beat* Russia, not just fight them to the Donbas-like stalemate of the past 8 years. It is, in part, western-supplied weapons like Javelins and Stingers that stopped cold the Russia advance towards Kyiv.

Thus, Ukraine winning, Russian being incompetent, and our helping are not mutually exclusive concepts.
 
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#30,960
#30,960
DonjoVol said:
If Ukraine is winning and the Russian military is as incompetent as you guys say it is then it's safe to assume that Ukraine doesn't need any help. They are doing just fine on their own.
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Yes they are Curly. They indeed have shown the manpower capacity and intestinal fortitude to stomp a mud hole in Russia’s ass. But all those artillery shells, ammo, and anti tank missiles don’t refill themselves. So we handle that. It’s win win US/Western equipment destroying Russian military just as it was designed to do without risk to US/Western personnel.

But by all means please keep this completely idiotic reply going it’s funny as hell to read and laugh about. And even more fun to mock the lack of basic logic! 🤡
 
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#30,961
#30,961
DonjoVol said:
If Ukraine is winning and the Russian military is as incompetent as you guys say it is then it's safe to assume that Ukraine doesn't need any help. They are doing just fine on their own.
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The assistance the west is giving them, coupled with Russian incompetence is keeping Ukraine in this fight. It appears a stalemate at this point which by default is a win for Ukraine under the circumstances.
 
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#30,962
#30,962
OrangeTsar said:
I have made no secret of my sympathies with the Ukrainians in this war; but I am becoming daily more concerned about the way we are sleepwalking towards a World War. We can and should support Ukraine but not to the level we are getting involved. We have no treaty obligations to Ukraine and saving Ukraine has no real bearing on our national interests. The only strategic benefit is in wearing down Russia. But that comes at a cost. The 21st Century will ultimately be a power struggle between the US and China. In a three way game, the US ultimately needs Russia on our side. All we have managed to do is push Russia into the arms of China, the worst thing you can do in a triangular game. Now we do get the benefit of a strengthen NATO and Europe which is a fourth factor in the global game; but long term the US would have benefited greatly from a benevolent Russia, especially since it shares such a long and crucial border with China. An understanding with Russia helps encircle China. A strengthened NATO does not. So if we can somehow get out of this without a world war and with a weakened Russia, we get a short term strategic win but a long term strategic defeat IMO
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Curious, what is Russia going to show up to this third WW with? A bag of marbles and some 8th graders? Aside from nukes, they appear to be nothing.
 
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#30,963
#30,963
allvol123 said:
Curious, what is Russia going to show up to this third WW with? A bag of marbles and some 8th graders? Aside from nukes, they appear to be nothing.
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Who knows what condition their nuclear arsenal is in. Half of thier missiles may have rusted away. The rest may not have functioning navigation equipment. They may bomb themselves.

Edit: Putin and his cronies have probably been luting their military funding for years.
 
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#30,969
#30,969
NorthDallas40 said:
Yes they are Curly. They indeed have shown the manpower capacity and intestinal fortitude to stomp a mud hole in Russia’s ass. But all those artillery shells, ammo, and anti tank missiles don’t refill themselves. So we handle that. It’s win win US/Western equipment destroying Russian military just as it was designed to do without risk to US/Western personnel.

But by all means please keep this completely idiotic reply going it’s funny as hell to read and laugh about. And even more fun to mock the lack of basic logic! 🤡
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It is good to get to test our weapons on live Russian equipment without having to put any boots on the ground. The Javelin and stinger missiles have proven very effective. Would work just as well blowing up Chinese junk too. Also, the "Neptune" missile is just a slightly modified U.S. made Harpoon missile. It has sent some Russian battle ships straight to the bottom, including one of their best. The U.S. now has even better updated versions of the Harpoon. This is a war that we have learned just how much further along we are than one of our adversaries.
 
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#30,970
#30,970
DonjoVol said:
He was trying to have a relationship with Russia and the West. Russia had no desire at the time to ever take any territory from them or supporting any independence movements in Ukraine. Why is Ukraine not allowed to have a relationship with Russia. That's up for them to decide. Not us, NATO, or the EU.

Certain members of our political class also had financial interests in Ukraine. You all know this and the fact that some in here are okay with that is a shame. Second, John McCain was sent over there like he was to Libya, Syria, and Georgia. Our military industrial complex needed a conflict to be manufactured and that was another result of Yanukovych being ousted. It's rather sad some of you in here can't connect the dots with what's been going on in Ukraine.
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Oh no, one of our politicians visited at some various point in the past, and you cant provide a direct correlation between said visit and anything else. I am sure some of our politicians have been to pretty much every nation on earth, including Russia, and have family or direct business ties there, including Russia. Hardly a smoking gun.

And for some Yanokvich completely dropped the western ties, the one he ran on, and only went with the Russians. Seems like a pretty good reason not to like the guy. Especially if you are old enough to remember living under the Russian Soviets, or the economic fallout of their failure.

You and Ras will have to remind me what demographics, resources, and other changes the Russians, I mean Soviets, didnt have access to when they collapsed the last time.
 
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