War in Ukraine

[NorthDallas40]

US soldiers give Italian woman birthday cake to replace one stolen in second world war – video

 

[tvolsfan]

Over a million drug overdose deaths in the U. S. since 1999 and suicide rate up in this country 35% since 1999. But let's just continue to virtue signal on about Ukraine.

So I presume you’re on board with with the increased spending to address mental health and addiction?

 

[NorthDallas40]

Maybe the one bright spot in all this is that China may have as much trouble keeping their copies of our overly sophisticated planes in the air as we do the originals. The availability rates and man-hours of maintenance per man-hour of flight are appalling.

Ive always said the one thing we could do to hurt the competitive capabilities of other companies in our equipment segment is to give them our design data and dare them to produce them too

 

[FLVOL_79]

Just a casual conversation between a mother and her son about Russian sponsored war crimes:
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineInv...sian_soldier_discusses_torture_of_ukrainians/

 

[TheDeeble]

I dont even want to think about that. I'd assume its lights out for the major metropolitan areas in Russia.

If it's Kyiv I wouldn't think so? Any country that responded with a nuke would probably get one sent at them by Russia. I don't know if a nuclear capable country would want to put their own land/people at risk for a nuclear response. I'm not saying it's justifiable for Russia. Just that I think there would be a different response if a nuke is used against a non nuclear country.

If it's in Ukraine I'd think it would be worldwide condemnation, ostracization, ect.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

It's been reported this morning by several sources that the lads in the steel mill are still fighting the Orcs, within the factory.

 

[NCFisher]

The Russian Federation’s Ongoing Aggression Against Ukraine

The parallels of yelling "Nazis!" and "White supremacists!', and why they do it:

The Russian Federation’s Ongoing Aggression Against Ukraine
As delivered by Ambassador Michael Carpenter
to the Permanent Council, Vienna
May 5, 2022

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Over the past 10 weeks, the world has watched in horror as Russia’s forces in Ukraine have committed atrocities of unspeakable brutality. Each reported execution or rape is evidence of a serious crime of the utmost brutality and depravity. Yet Russia’s soldiers are not committing these acts in isolation. We heard from the Moscow Mechanism experts that there is indeed a clear pattern of violating international law on the part of Russia’s forces. With each passing day, this pattern becomes more apparent.

Mr. Chair, it is clear there is a connection between the dehumanizing rhetoric spewed by the Russian government and its representatives, including those who sit in this Council, and the atrocities being committed by Russia’s soldiers in Ukraine.

The rhetoric we repeatedly hear from Russia’s representatives denies that Ukraine is historically or culturally distinct from Russia or that it has the right to exist as a sovereign, independent nation-state. It tries to erase the very idea of a Ukrainian identity, and it describes the people of Ukraine in the vilest terms.

First, the Kremlin contends that Ukraine is an artificial construct, that Ukrainians and Russians are supposedly “one people,” and that Ukraine’s sovereignty is possible only as part of the Russian Federation. Russian President Putin wrote these very points in an essay just a few months ago.

Next, the Russian government contends that this national identity is interchangeable with Nazism and tries to convince the Russian people into believing that the Ukrainian nation – by its very definition – is intent on waging genocide against Russians. We have seen these rhetorical devices before in history. And this hate speech is deployed on a repeat loop by Russian government officials and state media. An article published by RIA Novosti in early April called the very existence of an independent Ukraine “Nazism.” If all Ukrainians – including children – are Nazis, then imagine what sort of license that gives to Russian soldiers on the front lines. A license that gets transmitted from this very Council every week.

On several occasions, Russia’s leaders have also layered on the absurd claim that Ukrainian leaders are drug addicts. Drug use, they argue, is the depraved byproduct of an open, democratic, Western society. The enemy, therefore, uses drugs. Patently ridiculous, but this is what they say.

Every time Russia’s representative in this Council calls the people of Ukraine “Nazis,” they are not referring to fascist ideology; they use the term “Nazi” as a code to mean subhuman. One Russian politician put it as follows, and it is worth quoting: “We are fighting not against people but against enemies…not against people but against Ukrainians.” Pause to think about that.

Placing an entire nation outside of humanity and outside of the code of moral conduct is a frightening undertaking. The atrocities committed by Russia’s forces against the people of Ukraine are the depraved outgrowth of this dehumanizing disinformation, which has been force-fed to Russia’s conscripts, indeed to all of Russia’s citizens, for years.

The survivors of Russia’s atrocities and other abuses in Ukraine have repeatedly noted how Russia’s soldiers invoked Nazism at the time they committed their crimes. Iryna Abramova recalled the morning of March 5 when a Russian commander ordered her husband, Oleh, into the street. He asked, “Where are the Nazis?” When Iryna told him there were no Nazis, the commander responded, “We have come here to die, and our wives are waiting for us, and you started this war. You elected this Nazi government.” Then they told Oleh to kneel, ordered him to strip off his shirt, and shot him point-blank in the head. Recalling this, Iryna could not help but state with bewilderment, “They loved the word Nazi for some reason.”

The Russian state has been so consumed by its own perverted narrative that its Foreign Minister went so far this week as to claim, as my Ukrainian colleague has pointed out, that President Zelenskyy is an anti-Semite, all in an attempt to denigrate a country that freely elected an ethnically Jewish president – and native Russian speaker, I might add – with the absurd suggestion that this is the manifestation of Nazism. Russia’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs even went so far as to put out a public treatise that drew a parallel between Zelenskyy as the democratically elected President of Ukraine and Jews who collaborated with Nazis during the Holocaust. When the Israeli government demanded an apology, Russia accused Israel – that’s right, Israel – of supporting Neo-Nazis. Though patently absurd to all of us in this Council, the Kremlin’s dehumanizing lies about Nazism and Ukraine are specifically intended to lead to one preposterous conclusion: that anyone who recognizes the legitimacy of the Ukrainian state and the distinct identity and will of its people – in other words, anyone who supports a sovereign, democratic, inclusive, and independent Ukraine – must somehow also be supporting Nazis. Not even the Israeli government is immune from this twisted logic.

Mr. Chair, the Kremlin’s dehumanizing lies are not merely the genesis of its atrocities; they are the foundation for the Kremlin’s program to suppress Ukrainian culture and identity. As we have said over the last few days, we have reason to believe the Russian Federation plans to attempt to forcibly annex the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk “people’s republics” in the coming weeks or months and that Moscow is considering a similar operation for Kherson. Russia has forced schools in areas under its control in the Kherson region to switch to the Russian curriculum. It has forced the local population to use the Russian ruble. It has cut off the internet and cell phone transmissions to prevent reliable, factual communications. It has also started changing the names of towns and villages in the areas it controls.

Throughout history, we have seen the dangers of dehumanizing propaganda exploited to provide a quasi-ideological justification for the most heinous of undertakings. Reports of “filtration camps” to conduct forced transfers of Ukrainian citizens into Russia are the latest example.

Mr. Chair, in spite of Russia’s brutal aggression, the people of Ukraine know who they are. No amount of lies or dehumanizing disinformation from the Kremlin will change that. No bullets, no mortars or missiles can ever purge Ukraine from the hearts of its people.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I request this statement be attached to the Journal of the Day.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Putin and his VN apologists use the same propagandist, dehumanization tactics against Ukraine that Biden and the American left use against conservative voters. On an intellectual basis, the person who substitutes Aryan pejorative for argument should be seen as unfit to participate in it. In actuality, neither logical policy or a stable society is the goal, but power.

Remove the humanity from someone and you license your conscience for anything you may do to them.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

No need for Minsk I or II had they agreed to their commitments under the original Budapest Agreement

You mean the same agreement that the West violated and made null and void?

 

[NorthDallas40]

You mean the same agreement that the West violated and made null and void?

You keep presenting that as somehow justifying Pootin’s decision to just shred the document and wage open war on Ukraine Moe. Your whataboutism does no such thing.

I’d prefer we didn’t meddle in other countries government. However there is no amount of “meddling” by any number of countries that could justify your man crush’s invasions and the documented war crimes of his military. Those are facts as you like to say.

 

[NCFisher]

Don’t Let Russia Fool You About the Minsk Agreements | CEPA
(nor resident VN Putin apologists who slothfully parrot the "Nazi" propaganda to dehumanize Ukranians while claiming "Russia tried diplomacy")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
December 16, 2021
The deals reached several years ago are far from perfect, but they nonetheless offer a way to talk to Russia while pressing it not to invade further.
Following US President Joe Biden’s phone call with Russian President Vladimir Putin on December 7, there is a renewed focus on the implementation of the Minsk Agreements as a way of defusing the current Russian military build-up and finding a lasting settlement of Russia’s war in eastern Ukraine.
Minsk is deeply flawed and open to wildly different interpretations. So, the positions of Germany and France (which were midwives to the deal), and especially of the United States are of critical importance in preventing Russia from imposing a unilateral interpretation of the Agreements in ways that were never agreed by Ukraine.
Despite their flaws, however, the Minsk Agreements are essential to the current diplomatic process surrounding Ukraine for two reasons: First, they are the most recent formal, written document to which Russia has subscribed, which affirms Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity; second, Russia’s failure to implement the deal is the basis for keeping EU sanctions in place against Russia. These sanctions must be sustained and strengthened if there is any hope of persuading Russia to end the war.
If the implementation of Minsk is to be given a fresh impetus in international diplomacy under the Biden Administration and a new German government, it is important to debunk Russian disinformation about the Agreements and reiterate exactly what they mean.
There are several key points:
1. There are two Minsk Agreements, not just one. The first “Minsk Protocol” was signed on September 5, 2014. It mainly consists of a commitment to a ceasefire along the existing line of contact, which Russia never respected. By February 2015, fighting had intensified to a level that led to renewed calls for a ceasefire, and ultimately led to the second Minsk Agreement, signed on February 12, 2015. Even after this agreement, Russian-led forces kept fighting and took the town of Debaltseve six days later. The two agreements are cumulative, building on each other, rather than the second replacing the first. This is important in understanding the importance, reflected in the first agreement, of an immediate ceasefire and full monitoring by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), including on the Ukraine-Russia border, as fundamental to the subsequent package of agreements.
2. Russia is a Party to the Minsk Agreements. The original Minsk signatories are Russia, Ukraine, and the OSCE. Russia is a protagonist in the war in Ukraine and is fully obliged to follow the deal’s terms. Despite that, however, Russia untruthfully claims not to be a party and only a facilitator — and that the real agreements are between Ukraine and the so-called “separatists,” who call themselves the Luhansk and Donetsk Peoples’ Republics (LPR and DPR), but are in fact Russian supplied and directed.
3. The LPR and DPR are not recognized as legitimate entities under the Minsk Agreements. The signatures of the leaders of the so-called Luhansk and Donetsk Peoples’ Republics were added after they had already been signed by Ukraine, Russia, and the OSCE. They were not among the original signatories, and indeed Ukraine would not have signed had their signatures been part of the deal. There is nothing in the content or format of the Agreement that legitimizes these entities and they should not be treated as negotiating partners in any sense. Russia alone controls the forces occupying parts of eastern Ukraine.
4. Russia is in violation of the Minsk Agreements. The deals require a ceasefire, withdrawal of foreign military forces, disbanding of illegal armed groups, and returning control of the Ukrainian side of the international border with Russia to Ukraine, all of this under OSCE supervision. Russia has done none of this. It has regular military officers as well as intelligence operatives and unmarked “little green men” woven into the military forces in Eastern Ukraine. The LPR and DPR forces are by any definition “illegal armed groups,” that have not been disbanded. The ceasefire has barely been respected by the Russian side for more than a few days at a time.
5. Russian-led forces prevent the OSCE from accomplishing its mission in Donbas as spelled out in the Minsk Agreements. It is an unstated irony in Vienna — understood by every single diplomatic mission and member of the international staff — that Russia approves the mandate of the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission (SMM) in Ukraine when it votes in Vienna, but then blocks implementation of that same mission on the ground in Ukraine. Because Russia is a member of the OSCE, and the SMM wants to preserve what little access it has to the occupied territories, the mission is guarded in what it says about ceasefire violations and restrictions on its freedom of movement. Privately, however, they acknowledge that some 80% of such violations and restrictions come from the Russian-controlled side of the border, and those that occur on the Ukrainian side are largely for safety reasons (e.g., avoiding mined approaches to bridges.)
6. Ukraine has implemented as much of Minsk as can reasonably be done while Russia still occupies its territory. The agreements require political measures on Ukraine’s side, including a special status for the region, an amnesty for those who committed crimes as part of the conflict, local elections, and some form of decentralization under the Ukrainian constitution. But the form of these measures is not specified, and Ukraine has already passed legislation addressing every point. It has passed – and extended with renewals – legislation on special status and amnesty, and already has legislation on the books governing local elections. It has passed constitutional amendments. The Minsk Agreements do not require Ukraine to grant autonomy to Donbas, or to become a federalized state. It is Russia’s unique interpretation that the measures passed by Ukraine are somehow insufficient, even though the agreements do not specify what details should be included, and Ukraine has already complied with what is actually specified to the degree it can.
What is lacking in Ukraine’s passage of these political measures is not the legislation per se, but implementation — which Russia itself prevents by continuing to occupy the territory. For example, international legal norms would never recognize the results of elections held under conditions of occupation, yet that is exactly what Russia seeks by demanding local elections before it relinquishes control. Moreover, the elections would not be for positions in the illegitimate LPR and DPR “governments” established under Russian occupation, but for the legitimate city councils, mayors, and oblast administrations that exist under Ukrainian law. Who would vote in such elections? Ukrainian law says all displaced citizens should vote. But would Russian occupation authorities allow this? These are matters for resolution under international supervision – not for Russia to dictate terms.
7. Some form of neutral peacekeeping or policing force could help bridge between Russian control and Ukrainian control of the occupied territory – but Russia has rejected such proposals. Because of the impossibility of Ukraine implementing political measures while Russia still occupies its territory, the United States — as well as Ukraine, with support from others —proposed deployment of an UN-mandated peacekeeping force to Donbas, so that Russian forces could withdraw, and an UN-backed force could deploy, without an immediate hand-over to Ukrainian control. This could allow time and space for local elections to occur, and for the implementation of special status and amnesty legislation. Russia, however, has consistently rejected such proposals, even labeling an UN-supported peacekeeping force a “military takeover” of the region, when of course it is Russia that has actually taken over the region militarily and unilaterally.
8. The US diplomatic role is essential. Germany and France lead the “Normandy Format,” which brings Russia and Ukraine to the negotiating table under their leadership. In this format, however, Germany and France treat Russia and Ukraine as bearing equal responsibility for the conflict, even though Russian forces are occupying and fighting inside Ukraine, and Ukraine is acting in self-defense. Privately, French and German diplomats acknowledge Russia’s responsibility for the ongoing war, but for diplomatic reasons do not often state this publicly. There are signs that this Franco-German unwillingness to identify the aggressor is feeding through into a refusal to consider detailed sanctions at this juncture and even to deny defensive weaponry to Ukraine.
These are bleak signals. This is why the US diplomatic role in Ukraine negotiations is so important. Only the United States can publicly shine a light on and condemn Russia’s military aggression against Ukraine. Germany and France will not do it. The United States has the military, political, and economic weight that can force Russia to pay attention, and embolden European policies. Exercising this power can shift the diplomatic dynamic onto a more level playing field. Failure to do so means the playing field defaults to Russia.
9. The only way to end the war is to change Russia’s calculations. Whether it is peacekeeping or police forces to provide local security; elections under international supervision; creating humanitarian corridors respected by all sides; unfettered freedom of movement for the OSCE’s SMM; or other ideas still to be explored, there is nothing preventing implementation of the Minsk Agreements other than Russia’s continued occupation. As soon as Russia chooses to end the war, the rest follows in swift order.
What this means is that the focus should not be on details of the agreements themselves, but on whatever will change Russia’s calculations. Unwinnability, high economic and military cost, improvements in Ukrainian defense forces — all of these can affect Russia’s decisions on whether to end the war, or to escalate further using the overwhelming military force it has deployed inside Ukraine and around its borders. Today, Russia calculates that it has all the cards. The West needs to convince Russia that it is wrong.
The job of US diplomacy is not merely to engage in talks, but to illuminate a reality that changes Russian assumptions, so that the Kremlin understands that Ukrainian independence is a fire, that it can be fed, and that reaching into the flames will be a painful — and scarring — experience.
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[FLVOL_79]

If it's Kyiv I wouldn't think so? Any country that responded with a nuke would probably get one sent at them by Russia. I don't know if a nuclear capable country would want to put their own land/people at risk for a nuclear response. I'm not saying it's justifiable for Russia. Just that I think there would be a different response if a nuke is used against a non nuclear country.

If it's in Ukraine I'd think it would be worldwide condemnation, ostracization, ect.

Problem is a nuke strike on Ukraine is going to have an adverse impact on the entire continent of Europe. Its a lose lose situation.

 

[Septic]

Definite war crimes. Time to call a tribunal!

I can't believe those cake thieves weren't tried in Nuremberg where they belonged! Though I'm pretty sure these felonious baked good pilfering miscreants were brought to justice at the War Crimes Branch.

 

[FLVOL_79]

It's been reported this morning by several sources that the lads in the steel mill are still fighting the Orcs, within the factory.

Poor ol Russia can't even get their sh!t together to take over a f##king factory after what, 40 to 50 days? Morons.

 

[FLVOL_79]

I can't believe those cake thieves weren't tried in Nuremberg where they belonged! Though I'm pretty sure these felonious baked good pilfering miscreants were brought to justice at the War Crimes Branch.

I think we should dig up their corpses, try them, then kill them a 2nd time just for good measure. Cake Nazi's, waaaay worse than the gay and satanic ones in Ukraine.

 

[Rickyvol77]

US soldiers give Italian woman birthday cake to replace one stolen in second world war – video

You can’t be serious with this

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

Problem is a nuke strike on Ukraine is going to have an adverse impact on the entire continent of Europe. Its a lose lose situation.

A direct nuke strike on Ukraine would be direct fall out on Moscow.

 

[KB5252]

They tried diplomacy 8 years ago with Minsk I and II.

And then armed and supported the rebellion. Come on man, you know there was no good faith in action by either side there. It was worthless.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

My guess is our boys boobie trapped the **** out of the entrances and such. I'm sure they had the place laid out for a final stand.

Poor ol Russia can't even get their sh!t together to take over a f##king factory after what, 40 to 50 days? Morons.

 

[Velo Vol]

Job opportunity for @Rasputin_Vol

 

[EasternVol]

I have no answer for that one. Certainly the way the Palestine was partitioned by the UN and Britain didn't help the situation either. There are a couple of very good books by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre about dividing countries. O Jerusalem! is about the founding of the Israeli state, and Freedom at Midnight is about Britain leaving India and Pakistan and dividing the two countries. There's a lot of perspective on how religion and ethnicity make for difficult neighbors. All the books these two wrote were great; the title most people would first recognize would be Is Paris Burning? I didn't expect to really care for Or I'll Dress You In Mourning but it matched up to all their other works.

Thank you for mentioning those books. The Decline and Fall of the British Empire by Piers Brendon touches on the divisions mentioned. Forgotten Armies and Forgotten Wars by Christopher Bayly and Tim Harper deal with the end of that empire. All three are good reads, at least for me.

 

[EasternVol]

[

I could be wrong but I don't believe they would take out a city early on. First use would be to hit an area where there may be a concentration of troops or perhaps a command center. What comes next is the million dollar question. Hopefully instead of a counterstrike by NATO the world condemnation will be so intense that Putin will finally be removed.

What kind of condemnation would be stronger than that already done, or more importantly more effective?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You keep presenting that as somehow justifying Pootin’s decision to just shred the document and wage open war on Ukraine Moe. Your whataboutism does no such thing.

No, I continue to use the argument that the US themselves violated the Budapest Agreement that you whine about by inserting themselves into the internal politics of Ukraine and staged a coup of Ukraine in 2014. That was the catalyst for all of this.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

EU plans to block Russians from buying European real estate – Bloomberg (yahoo.com)

So who does this hurt again? Let's suppose there are still Russians dumb enough to buy property in Europe and risk getting is seized by these thieves. Does this plan hurt those Russians more or does it hurt the real estate agencies or European sellers?

 

[NorthDallas40]

No, I continue to use the argument that the US themselves violated the Budapest Agreement that you whine about by inserting themselves into the internal politics of Ukraine and staged a coup of Ukraine in 2014. That was the catalyst for all of this.

No. You keep misrepresenting the situation and wrongly attempting to justify Pootin shredding the document for expediency to rationalize their invasion agenda.

The document was/is still in force. And there is no amount of whataboutism you can levy to justify Pootin breaking their obligations and invading Ukraine.

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

"Ukrainian presidential adviser Oleksiy Arestovych spoke about the latest situation in the Azovstal steel works in Mariupol, saying Ukrainian forces "repelled" Russian troops at the plant.
He told Ukrainian television that "we can say that yesterday Russian troops entered the territory of Azovstal and were repelled by our defenders."
He said a lot of contradictory information was circulating, but added: "We can say that there are ongoing combats. All other information is being clarified."

-cnn