War in Ukraine

[volgr]

Our founders didn’t dream of atomic bombs or the axis powers. That’s a crazy weak position. When they opined about alliances it still took months to cross the Atlantic.

Principle remains the same and the consequences they saw from entangling alliances were pretty accurate.

 

[volgr]

Ukraine had the nukes. They were theirs. Period. That isn’t event debatable.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Principle remains the same and the consequences they saw from entangling alliances were pretty accurate.

Too bad the US and Russia signed the Budapest agreement

 

[hog88]

Our founders didn’t dream of atomic bombs or the axis powers. That’s a crazy weak position. When they opined about alliances it still took months to cross the Atlantic.

Yeah our FFs were dumb and never envisioned advances in technology.

 

[NCFisher]

Thanks, only he would have had such an easier time with willing understanding.....but hey, that's half the fun of the PF.

Yeah, anytime I hear “Give me liberty, or give me death!”, you come to mind.

 

[NorthDallas40]

they were broken down in Oak Ridge, Larry

 

[clarksvol00]

No spin needed. Ukraine never had nukes to give up. They were Soviet nukes that were still under Soviet control at that time. Ukraine had no way to use them, maintain them, and had no infrastructure or money to fund the needed infrastructure, etc. Had Ukraine tried to gain control of them, Russia would have quickly put an end to it. So this ridiculous notion that Ukraine "gave up nukes for security obligations" is a total misread of history.

If that's the case, Russia probably shouldn't have signed off on that agreement. I'm no nuclear engineer, but I'm gonna violate one of my general rules and use blue font now... I'm sure there's no way other parties to that agreement would have figured out how to use that fissile material if Ukraine gave it to them.

 

[luthervol]

Hamilton wrote that, not Jefferson. Jefferson was an anti-federalist.

Yep. It was Hamilton. It was Federalist Paper No. 1, sort of giving the rationale and laying the framework for all of the papers to follow.
I think he would be more likely to shoot you than Henry would be to shoot me.

 

[hog88]

Yep. It was Hamilton. It was Federalist Paper No. 1, sort of giving the rationale and laying the framework for all of the papers to follow.
I think he would be more likely to shoot you than Henry would be to shoot me.

There’s not much doubt that me and Hammy wouldn’t agree on a lot of things he believed in a strong federal government. But he and Henry both would probably shoot you.

 

[NorthDallas40]

There’s not much doubt that me and Hammy wouldn’t agree on a lot of things he believed in a strong federal government. But he and Henry both would probably shoot you.

They’d take turns shooting him. Make an afternoon of it.

 

[OHvol40]

Principle remains the same and the consequences they saw from entangling alliances were pretty accurate.

They were not benevolent, infallible, or travelers from the future. They were men who’s reality included outhouses and sending messages via horseback. Our ancestors also cannibalized each other, do you subscribe to those principles too?

Hiding behind the irrelevant words of others because you can’t find your own is, as I said, weak. A lot has happened since the mid 18th century.

 

[OHvol40]

Yeah our FFs were dumb and never envisioned advances in technology.

Did they prophesy everything that has happened technologically and geopolitically the last 250 years? Can you prophesy what happens in the next 250? Should future generations hang on our current leader’s words in a quarter millennia? Doubtful.

 

[volgr]

they were broken down in Oak Ridge, Larry

What does that matter? You said they were Ukrainian nukes.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Did they prophesy everything that has happened technologically and geopolitically the last 250 years? Can you prophesy what happens in the next 250? Should future generations hang on our current leader’s words in a quarter millennia? Doubtful.

They were smart enough to know that technology would advance. It’s a bit disingenuous to claim they couldn’t imagine the destructive power man would yield when you consider how much insight and contemplation went in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Those products of their work still hold up well to the test of time.

 

[NorthDallas40]

What does that matter? You said they Ukrainian nukes.

Yes I did. Because that’s who owned them, Larry. The label “USSR nukes” was no longer applicable. Fact. And all of your deflection and state media denials cannot change that.

 

[utvolpj]

Did they prophesy everything that has happened technologically and geopolitically the last 250 years? Can you prophesy what happens in the next 250? Should future generations hang on our current leader’s words in a quarter millennia? Doubtful.

However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.

seems kinda prescient doesn't it?

 

[MontyPython]

We gave Ukraine M142 HIMARS artillery systems in the batch other just arrived. Did not expect that.

Buh bye Russian troops.

 

[clarksvol00]

Yes I did. Because that’s who owned them, Larry. The label “USSR nukes” was no longer applicable. Fact. And all of your deflection and state media denials cannot change that.

You mean the Russians didn't sign an agreement to get formerly Soviet nukes out of a formerly Soviet neighboring country just because they thought it would be the neighborly thing to do?

 

[NorthDallas40]

You mean the Russians didn't sign an agreement to get formerly Soviet nukes out of a formerly Soviet neighboring country just because they thought it would be the neighborly thing to do?

Crazy right? Hey these nukes are really ours and they aren’t a threat anyway but we’re just gonna go ahead and sign this security commitment as that makes perfect sense. Besides some asshat will just wind up running the country in a few years anyway that will just shred this document anyway. Totally legit

 

[luthervol]

There’s not much doubt that me and Hammy wouldn’t agree on a lot of things he believed in a strong federal government. But he and Henry both would probably shoot you.

lol....The very first Federalist Paper, which is pretty much giving the foundation for the rest, is mainly a warning about people with your views. You are the problem about which we were warned. (of course I knew that all along, just glad to see Hamilton concur)

 

[Redleg68]

We probably enlisted about the same time. I was supposed to go to OCS; but about two weeks shy of graduation from Infantry AIT, OCS slots for non college grads were pulled - I was a junior at UT when I quit in the spring of 1967 so no degree. I got back the school the recruiter signed me up for, went to Redstone for about nine months, and was in an Ordnance company attached to a Hawk Artillery Brigade on Okinawa for a couple of years repairing radar. We wore the 30th Artillery Brigade patch, but the Ordnance rather than Artillery Branch insignia. I loved the work but the Army not so much. About half my class at Redstone went to Vietnam, and a few of those wound up with us in Okinawa a few months later when the Army pulled Hawks out of Vietnam.

I got to spend a few weeks supporting the artillery batteries at the Annual Service Practice range when they fired at drones. The picture on the left is one I took during that time. A lot quieter than the stuff your guys were firing.

Ironic, the last location I was at in Vietnam ,was a Hawk compound that had pulled out. Kinda sticking out as bait if you know what I mean.

 

[Redleg68]

We probably enlisted about the same time. I was supposed to go to OCS; but about two weeks shy of graduation from Infantry AIT, OCS slots for non college grads were pulled - I was a junior at UT when I quit in the spring of 1967 so no degree. I got back the school the recruiter signed me up for, went to Redstone for about nine months, and was in an Ordnance company attached to a Hawk Artillery Brigade on Okinawa for a couple of years repairing radar. We wore the 30th Artillery Brigade patch, but the Ordnance rather than Artillery Branch insignia. I loved the work but the Army not so much. About half my class at Redstone went to Vietnam, and a few of those wound up with us in Okinawa a few months later when the Army pulled Hawks out of Vietnam.

I got to spend a few weeks supporting the artillery batteries at the Annual Service Practice range when they fired at drones. The picture on the left is one I took during that time. A lot quieter than the stuff your guys were firing.

You might have lucked out. Infantry Lts has a rather hazardous deal. They had to be at the very front to control the battle flow and snipers were looking for them. I had my RTO stay as far away from me as possible with the radio antenna sticking up in the air.

 

[Redleg68]

Taking you up on the recommendation. From Federalist No. 1: Thomas Jefferson
(some highlights)
Happy will it be if our choice should be directed by a judicious estimate of our true interests, unperplexed and unbiased by considerations not connected with the public good.
An enlightened zeal for the energy and efficiency of government will be stigmatized as the offspring of a temper fond of despotic power and hostile to the principles of liberty. An over-scrupulous jealousy of danger to the rights of the people, which is more commonly the fault of the head than of the heart, will be represented as mere pretense and artifice, the stale bait for popularity at the expense of the public good.
On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter,

It would be interesting to have a thread (I'm sure there has been one in the past) where we discuss them one at a time, (1-85)

Maybe Thomas Jefferson would have stopped Patrick Henry from shooting me...

Couldn't help but think of @hog88 as I read #1.

Those guys sure could write back then. Probably a lost art forever with the texting world--twitter-ect. ect. ect.

 

[OHvol40]

seems kinda prescient doesn't it?

Fledgling political parties were already part of their reality, hardly a prophecy or a stretch to ponder their consequences.

 

[utvolpj]

Fledgling political parties were already part of their reality, hardly a prophecy or a stretch to ponder their consequences.

So were advances in weapons and alliances yet you act like they couldn't foresee those.