War in Ukraine

#26,726
#26,726
Gandalf said:
I beg to differ. This is also Ukraine's war, for whether they want it or not, they are certainly at war. This is also the EU's war because they have major interests in propping up Ukraine, ergo they are all but fighting a proxy war (especially Poland) on Ukraine's soil.

And if we are being honest, this war is simply an expansion of the hostilities that have been happening over the last decade. Also, that calls for Ukraine to join Nato (or even the EU) undoubtedly counted in Putin's thinking to make this move while he still could do so without guaranteeing a wider war.

But it is also without question that Russia expanded the conflict well beyond the Eastern region, it is Russia who invaded another country's borders and it is Russia who is the primary cause for the death and suffering of many Ukrainian people. NATO and the US military industry are simply using this to their advantage but that now means ensuring the war MUST continue to eat up Ivan as much as possible, whatever the cost to the Ukrainian people.
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And if the Ukrainian people were unwilling it wouldnt how many javelins we stacked in there.

The fighting that's been going on for almost a decade is because of Russia. By the same NATO/EU argument Russia funded and supplied the breakaway regions. The conflict would have been over a long time ago without the Russian supplies.

That conflict only started because Russia made a move with the Ukrainian president and it blew up in their face. It blew up for the same reason they thought they could take Ukraine because they thought Ukrainians wanted saving. They largely don't want Russia.

Ukraine joining NATO became a serious talking point only after the Russians got seriously involved with the separtists and they took Crimea. Which actually justifies NATO.

Why is the EU fighting a proxy war with Russia? What do they stand to gain? A weaker Russia does.......what? Destabilize their fuel situation? Prop up the Euro, even though the Euro isnt involved?
 
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#26,727
#26,727
luthervol said:
Taking you up on the recommendation. From Federalist No. 1: Thomas Jefferson
(some highlights)
Happy will it be if our choice should be directed by a judicious estimate of our true interests, unperplexed and unbiased by considerations not connected with the public good.
An enlightened zeal for the energy and efficiency of government will be stigmatized as the offspring of a temper fond of despotic power and hostile to the principles of liberty. An over-scrupulous jealousy of danger to the rights of the people, which is more commonly the fault of the head than of the heart, will be represented as mere pretense and artifice, the stale bait for popularity at the expense of the public good.
On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter,

It would be interesting to have a thread (I'm sure there has been one in the past) where we discuss them one at a time, (1-85)

Maybe Thomas Jefferson would have stopped Patrick Henry from shooting me...

Couldn't help but think of @hog88 as I read #1.
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Hamilton wrote that, not Jefferson. Jefferson was an anti-federalist.
 
#26,732
#26,732
LouderVol said:
I wonder how the Moskva is doing? hopefully the fake Western propaganda machine hasnt done any serious damage to it.
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I checked Google Earth last night and the Moskva was still tied up to the dock in Sevastopol. Of course, the imagery date at the bottom said 12/28/2020.
 
#26,733
#26,733
The thing that @Rasputin_Vol and @volgr fail to grasp is that even if Russia were to somehow conquer Ukraine or a large chunk of it, Ukrainians would *never* submit to being occupied by Russia.

Putin's war is simply unwinnable. Period.

The question now is how many thousands of young men have to die before the Russians tuck tail and retreat in disgrace.
 
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#26,736
#26,736
MontyPython said:
The thing that @Rasputin_Vol and @volgr fail to grasp is that even if Russia were to somehow conquer Ukraine or a large chunk of it, Ukrainians would *never* submit to being occupied by Russia.

Putin's war is simply unwinnable. Period.

The question now is how many thousands of young men have to die before the Russians tuck tail and retreat in disgrace.
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I dont think Russia will try and hold areas that aren't receptive to them. On the flip side, how does the West plan on propping up what is left of a destroyed and dismantled Ukraine? The midget cokehead Zelensky has his hand out begging for $50B currently. How much money/resources will the west be able to sink into the corrupt cesspit of Ukraine to keep it afloat for the next 5 years?
 
#26,737
#26,737
KB5252 said:
By aligning themselves and embracing a more western philosophy. They have about faced and are retreating back to the old school Russian philosophy that brought them to such low levels that required resurrecting.
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I agree with the first sentence, I disagree with the second. I don't see them retreating to their old ways but they won't be embracing western style "democracy" any time soon either. Again, they may be only delaying the inevitable as I have talked about before because young Russians are drawn to western style "democracy".
 
#26,738
#26,738
volgr said:
I dont think Russia will try and hold areas that aren't receptive to them. On the flip side, how does the West plan on propping up what is left of a destroyed and dismantled Ukraine? The midget cokehead Zelensky has his hand out begging for $50B currently. How much money/resources will the west be able to sink into the corrupt cesspit of Ukraine to keep it afloat for the next 5 years?
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You keep getting confused. The midget is in Russia, and I don't think hes cool enough to party like that.
 
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#26,741
#26,741
Gandalf said:
If Ukraine wants to fight to the last man for their freedom, I have no problem with that and can respect it.
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I respect it, I just don't find that, in most cases, it to be genuine. I think that is more the western propaganda portrayal than reality.
 
#26,747
#26,747
Redleg68 said:
Yep, I went in enlisted and wound up in Long Range Recon for Armor. They kept after me to go to OCS, so I wound up going thru Artillery OCS at Ft. Sill Oklahoma. Graduated in Sept. of 1967
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We probably enlisted about the same time. I was supposed to go to OCS; but about two weeks shy of graduation from Infantry AIT, OCS slots for non college grads were pulled - I was a junior at UT when I quit in the spring of 1967 so no degree. I got back the school the recruiter signed me up for, went to Redstone for about nine months, and was in an Ordnance company attached to a Hawk Artillery Brigade on Okinawa for a couple of years repairing radar. We wore the 30th Artillery Brigade patch, but the Ordnance rather than Artillery Branch insignia. I loved the work but the Army not so much. About half my class at Redstone went to Vietnam, and a few of those wound up with us in Okinawa a few months later when the Army pulled Hawks out of Vietnam.

I got to spend a few weeks supporting the artillery batteries at the Annual Service Practice range when they fired at drones. The picture on the left is one I took during that time. A lot quieter than the stuff your guys were firing.
 
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