War in Ukraine

#26,704
#26,704
luthervol said:
So he hated the constitution? I thought it was you guys' bible.
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I am reading the Federalist Papers right now. I highly recommend it for everyone on whatever side of the political fence they are. It gives some great insight into the finer nuances of the arguments going on over ratification. I am having a lot of my simplistic assumptions about the arguments challenged which is a good thing. It helps me see it as not a simple good vs bad argument like I like to make it. And as someone with a libertarian bend, it is giving me some pause about some of the reasons I fear a strong government
Like I say, a good mind expanding read which will help anyone better understand the other side (whichever that one is for them)
 
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#26,710
#26,710
volgr said:
It's not so much being proven right about Russia winning as I think most knew that would happen (although some in here I think genuinely think Ukraine is winning), it's the sad reality that this whole episode never needed to come to this. It's the fact that roughly 2k troops trapped in Mariupol, who aren't being allowed to surrender by their gov't, are about to needlessly die. Same for the cauldroned soldiers stuck in Donbas, who even Britain is urging Zelensky to quickly pull back west to avoid certain encirclement soon and then slaughter...but for whatever reasons one wants to believe, sane rational heads aren't prevailing. It's a slaughter of many lives that could have been prevented by Russia, US, NATO, Ukraine who all share in this blame and shame.
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What is the government going to do to keep them from surrendering?

Shoot them? The russians will do that too. Throw them in prison? The russians will do that too.
Rape their women and blow up their city? The russians are doing that already.

Plenty of Ukrainians have surrendered, and their government has not once mentioned any type of retaliation against those soldiers.

You have a very janky understanding of how influence and structures of relationships work.
 
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#26,712
#26,712
volgr said:
It's not so much being proven right about Russia winning as I think most knew that would happen (although some in here I think genuinely think Ukraine is winning), it's the sad reality that this whole episode never needed to come to this. It's the fact that roughly 2k troops trapped in Mariupol, who aren't being allowed to surrender by their gov't, are about to needlessly die. Same for the cauldroned soldiers stuck in Donbas, who even Britain is urging Zelensky to quickly pull back west to avoid certain encirclement soon and then slaughter...but for whatever reasons one wants to believe, sane rational heads aren't prevailing. It's a slaughter of many lives that could have been prevented by Russia, US, NATO, Ukraine who all share in this blame and shame.
Click to expand...

If Ukraine wants to fight to the last man for their freedom, I have no problem with that and can respect it. What I don't respect is when they are being a cats paw for another's war, while the innocents bear the burden of it.

And yes, there are some here who probably do think Ukraine is "winning" atm instead of dealing with reality - Ukraine's courageous, effective and unexpected defense of their homeland has caused major disruption to Russia's initial plans. Russia has now reconfigured and made new plans based on the realities on the ground. The end result is not going to be good for Ukrainians, no matter how spirited their defense and a "win" is highly highly unlikely as the war progresses into the next stage.
 
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#26,714
#26,714
Gandalf said:
If Ukraine wants to fight to the last man for their freedom, I have no problem with that and can respect it. What I don't respect is when they are being a cats paw for another's war, while the innocents bear the burden of it.

And yes, there are some here who probably do think Ukraine is "winning" atm instead of dealing with reality - Ukraine's courageous, effective and unexpected defense of their homeland has caused major disruption to Russia's initial plans. Russia has now reconfigured and made new plans based on the realities on the ground. The end result is not going to be good for Ukrainians, no matter how spirited their defense and a "win" is highly highly unlikely as the war progresses into the next stage.
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Make no mistake this is only Russia's war. Russia attacked Ukraine. NATO had nothing to do with that. If anyone, including Putin, thought that Eastern Europe, including the many NATO nations were just going to sit back and watch after Russia went on the offensive they were bigly wrong.

For this all to be a play for the west, we must have.
1. Gotten a pro Russian candidate to run on promises of ties to the west.
2. Got him to win. S
3. Got him to drop his pro west act.
4. Organized the populace to kick him out.
5. Got Russia to take him back, despite being under our thumb.
6. Got Donbas to leave Ukraine
7. Got Russian soldiers into Crimea, used them to kick out the elected politicians, and then run a vote where the only option was to join Russia.
8. Got those sepatrist regions to actively fight against Ukraine.
9. Gotten ukraine to actively fight back.
10. Supplied Russian equipment to the separatists.
11. Somehow twisted Ukraines arm into never signing peace while not actually giving them anything (amazing statemanship)
12. Got Russia to invade Ukraine, and not just in the areas in question.
13. Now convinced a good chunk of their population to die fighting the Russians. I mean come on, we even got the farmers involved.
14. Also got their president who famously refused to leave his war torn country, putting himself in immediate real danger, to not give up the fight.

That is a WHOLE lot of points to put faith in, instead of just realizing Russia was involved AT LEAST as much as us.
 
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#26,718
#26,718
OrangeTsar said:
I am reading the Federalist Papers right now. I highly recommend it for everyone on whatever side of the political fence they are. It gives some great insight into the finer nuances of the arguments going on over ratification. I am having a lot of my simplistic assumptions about the arguments challenged which is a good thing. It helps me see it as not a simple good vs bad argument like I like to make it. And as someone with a libertarian bend, it is giving me some pause about some of the reasons I fear a strong government
Like I say, a good mind expanding read which will help anyone better understand the other side (whichever that one is for them)
Click to expand...
Taking you up on the recommendation. From Federalist No. 1: Alexander Hamilton
(some highlights)
Happy will it be if our choice should be directed by a judicious estimate of our true interests, unperplexed and unbiased by considerations not connected with the public good.
An enlightened zeal for the energy and efficiency of government will be stigmatized as the offspring of a temper fond of despotic power and hostile to the principles of liberty. An over-scrupulous jealousy of danger to the rights of the people, which is more commonly the fault of the head than of the heart, will be represented as mere pretense and artifice, the stale bait for popularity at the expense of the public good.
On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter,

It would be interesting to have a thread (I'm sure there has been one in the past) where we discuss them one at a time, (1-85)

Maybe Thomas Jefferson would have stopped Patrick Henry from shooting me...

Couldn't help but think of @hog88 as I read #1.
 
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#26,719
#26,719
luthervol said:
Taking you up on the recommendation. From Federalist No. 1: Thomas Jefferson
(some highlights)
Happy will it be if our choice should be directed by a judicious estimate of our true interests, unperplexed and unbiased by considerations not connected with the public good.
An enlightened zeal for the energy and efficiency of government will be stigmatized as the offspring of a temper fond of despotic power and hostile to the principles of liberty. An over-scrupulous jealousy of danger to the rights of the people, which is more commonly the fault of the head than of the heart, will be represented as mere pretense and artifice, the stale bait for popularity at the expense of the public good.
On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter,

It would be interesting to have a thread (I'm sure there has been one in the past) where we discuss them one at a time, (1-85)
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Yup, I remember that passage clearly. Very thought provoking
 
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#26,721
#26,721
LouderVol said:
Make no mistake this is only Russia's war. Russia attacked Ukraine. NATO had nothing to do with that. If anyone, including Putin, thought that Eastern Europe, including the many NATO nations were just going to sit back and watch after Russia went on the offensive they were bigly wrong.

For this all to be a play for the west, we must have.
1. Gotten a pro Russian candidate to run on promises of ties to the west.
2. Got him to win. S
3. Got him to drop his pro west act.
4. Organized the populace to kick him out.
5. Got Russia to take him back, despite being under our thumb.
6. Got Donbas to leave Ukraine
7. Got Russian soldiers into Crimea, used them to kick out the elected politicians, and then run a vote where the only option was to join Russia.
8. Got those sepatrist regions to actively fight against Ukraine.
9. Gotten ukraine to actively fight back.
10. Supplied Russian equipment to the separatists.
11. Somehow twisted Ukraines arm into never signing peace while not actually giving them anything (amazing statemanship)
12. Got Russia to invade Ukraine, and not just in the areas in question.
13. Now convinced a good chunk of their population to die fighting the Russians. I mean come on, we even got the farmers involved.
14. Also got their president who famously refused to leave his war torn country, putting himself in immediate real danger, to not give up the fight.

That is a WHOLE lot of points to put faith in, instead of just realizing Russia was involved AT LEAST as much as us.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. This is also Ukraine's war, for whether they want it or not, they are certainly at war. This is also the EU's war because they have major interests in propping up Ukraine, ergo they are all but fighting a proxy war (especially Poland) on Ukraine's soil.

And if we are being honest, this war is simply an expansion of the hostilities that have been happening over the last decade. Also, that calls for Ukraine to join Nato (or even the EU) undoubtedly counted in Putin's thinking to make this move while he still could do so without guaranteeing a wider war.

But it is also without question that Russia expanded the conflict well beyond the Eastern region, it is Russia who invaded another country's borders and it is Russia who is the primary cause for the death and suffering of many Ukrainian people. NATO and the US military industry are simply using this to their advantage but that now means ensuring the war MUST continue to eat up Ivan as much as possible, whatever the cost to the Ukrainian people.
 
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#26,722
#26,722
volgr said:
Monte posted a false tweet regarding the Moskva and @'ed me. I looked it up and quickly found his post, as most of Monte's posts are, to be terribly incorrect and pictures from another incident entirely (not even from this conflict) to which I responded that his claim was incorrect. So how was I "carrying water about the Moskva"?

Many of the lost generals end up alive. I don't really get into lost generals, lost tanks, etc because there is really no way to verify those things. Do you see me in here posting which Ukraine Generals are killed, which Ukraine tanks are lost each day, how many helicopters are being shotdown by Russia, etc? No, because it is hard to verify but it isn't hard to verify land gains and battles which is what I mostly stick to (along with bigger picture issues). Even in regards to Moskva, the official story still isn't known (Neptune vs fire) but at the end of the day either way it is an embarrassment and blow to Russia.

Again, I have been plenty critical of Russia where I see it warranted, but no, I'm not on the western propaganda side which I think has led to keeping this conflict going much longer than it needed to and thus lead to many unnecessary casualties on both sides.
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Pfft.

You got served, comrade. Sucks to be you.
 
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#26,723
#26,723
volgr said:
Monte posted a false tweet regarding the Moskva and @'ed me. I looked it up and quickly found his post, as most of Monte's posts are, to be terribly incorrect and pictures from another incident entirely (not even from this conflict) to which I responded that his claim was incorrect. So how was I "carrying water about the Moskva"?

Many of the lost generals end up alive. I don't really get into lost generals, lost tanks, etc because there is really no way to verify those things. Do you see me in here posting which Ukraine Generals are killed, which Ukraine tanks are lost each day, how many helicopters are being shotdown by Russia, etc? No, because it is hard to verify but it isn't hard to verify land gains and battles which is what I mostly stick to (along with bigger picture issues). Even in regards to Moskva, the official story still isn't known (Neptune vs fire) but at the end of the day either way it is an embarrassment and blow to Russia.

Again, I have been plenty critical of Russia where I see it warranted, but no, I'm not on the western propaganda side which I think has led to keeping this conflict going much longer than it needed to and thus lead to many unnecessary casualties on both sides.
Click to expand...

You are perhaps the biggest clown to ever post on VN.
 
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