War in Ukraine

#25,053
#25,053
volgr said:
I have no love for Russia. Although, I can see how compared to the absolute hate most of you on this board have for them, how some of you wrongly conclude I have a "love for Russia".

I just dont see them as an enemy and considering how resource rich they are I dont understand the need to bend over backwards to make them one...especially when we are doing so to prop up a corrupt Ukrainian regime. It makes zero sense.
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No one hates Russia. That’s strawmen BS. We hate that rRussia invaded a sovereign country under BS pretenses and is killing innocent people
 
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#25,055
#25,055
luthervol said:
We certainly get a bird's eye view in this thread of it's effectiveness on some.
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But both sides are doing exactly the same thing on the propaganda front - its just that Ukraine's propaganda is run out of Brussels and Washington and is more effective in the Western world. I dont know how any of this plays in the East, tho China and India sitting out may be some indication.

None of that means that Russia has moral justification to attack, just that once war starts, just like a street fight - there are no "Queensbury rules" and all sides (including us) will get as dirty as it takes to win while loudly proclaiming their own righteousness - sometimes that declaration of righteousness has been accurate and sometimes, not so much.
 
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#25,056
#25,056
apevol said:
Preemptively threatening the west with nuclear war just might have a little something to do with it?
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I do agree that having a nuclear power (actually the most nuclear armed power in the world), involved makes a difference. Then again, Putins threats to the West were also after we told him we were going to sanction/punish him for any actions in Ukraine. Hell, Biden was so dumb tho, he specifically said, anything more than a limited invasion - so Putin could have hit Eastern Ukraine and just called it a day but got greedy IMO
 
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#25,058
#25,058
volfanhill said:
Are you intentionally ignoring the obvious difference between Ukraine and Russia and Spain and Catalonia?
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Besides Russia being a major nuclear power, do tell the difference. We absolutely will sit by (and have) while Spain crushes dissent in Catalonia. Its not the same as Russia because Catalonia has not been successfull in breaking away yet and building its own army. Not saying its an exact comparison, just that the France one was more difficult because it needs to be a former breakaway on the border to be somewhat similar.
 
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#25,060
#25,060
volgr said:
Ukraine's desperation continues...as if blatant war crimes wasn't enough...
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Ukraine has absolutely no ability to do any of that - what gets tricky is if they are allowed to join the EU, then Brussels issues those legal proclamations, it is a much different story, since they actually have some power to collect. The trouble is, if taken too far, then yes, things could well spiral out of hand.
 
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#25,061
#25,061
volgr said:
Ukraine's desperation continues...as if blatant war crimes wasn't enough...
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You need to mentally prepare for how your Mother Russia is going to get crushed by their own doing here. Once their invading asses are driven out of all of Ukraine including their prior land grabs ALL of their assets outside of their direct control and going to be forfeit and will be awarded to Ukraine as reparations. It’s coming.
 
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#25,065
#25,065
Gandalf said:
Ukraine has absolutely no ability to do any of that - what gets tricky is if they are allowed to join the EU, then Brussels issues those legal proclamations, it is a much different story, since they actually have some power to collect. The trouble is, if taken too far, then yes, things could well spiral out of hand.
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Spiraling out of hand seems to be our current course of action. Not only Russia but now we are threatening China and India while China is messing around in the Solomon Islands and increasing pressure on Taiwan.
 
#25,066
#25,066
NorthDallas40 said:
You need to mentally prepare for how your Mother Russia is going to get crushed by their own doing here. Once their invading asses are driven out of all of Ukraine including their prior land grabs ALL of their assets outside of their direct control and going to be forfeit and will be awarded to Ukraine as reparations. It’s coming.
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If Russia loses and tucks tail home, I think you are right. Do you think this makes them MORE likely to leave Ukraine or less? They HAVE to win enough so that they can negotiate all this at the table later, whatever it takes. The very argument you made for destroying them afterward is reason for them to swim through rivers of Ukrainian (and Russian) blood to drive everyone to the bargaining table.

Do you suggest an off ramp for Putin or is now the time for the West to come together and crush Russia under heel? and if so, what do you think that will cost us and what will be the benefits?
 
#25,069
#25,069
Gandalf said:
If Russia loses and tucks tail home, I think you are right. Do you think this makes them MORE likely to leave Ukraine or less? They HAVE to win enough so that they can negotiate all this at the table later, whatever it takes. The very argument you made for destroying them afterward is reason for them to swim through rivers of Ukrainian (and Russian) blood to drive everyone to the bargaining table.

Do you suggest an off ramp for Putin or is now the time for the West to come together and crush Russia under heel? and if so, what do you think that will cost us and what will be the benefits?
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There won’t be an off ramp for Putin unless it’s offered with him relinquishing power. He has to go. This situation is by his own hand in miscalculation of what the West would allow him to get away with. If Putin is allowed to keep one square foot of any area of Ukraine and allowed to stay in power, Xi moves on Taiwan in the near future and that WILL result in open war between the US and China.
 
#25,072
#25,072
volgr said:
Nah, you hate Russia, don't lie.
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No I don’t. Russians are resilient although mostly misled people whom decades of communist rule have hardened. It’s not their fault their fascist autocratic leader routinely violates civil rights and uses illegal military force to try and dominate politics within other sovereign countries without due regard for innocent lives
 
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#25,073
#25,073
volgr said:
I really dont get the Russian hate. Are most of these posters boomers who lived through the cold war? I mean I am in my early 40s but I guess I missed the "hate Russia" programming.
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I can't think of anyone here who hated Russia. I think when they started annexing their neighbors people had issues. When they invaded a neighbor who dared to stand up to them and proceeded to try to ground them to dust........ you wonder why people are upset with Russia. I don't understand what you don't get.
 
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#25,075
#25,075
NorthDallas40 said:
There won’t be an off ramp for Putin unless it’s offered with him relinquishing power. He has to go. This situation is by his own hand in miscalculation of what the West would allow him to get away with. If Putin is allowed to keep one square foot of any area of Ukraine and allowed to stay in power, Xi moves on Taiwan in the near future and that WILL result in open war between the US and China.
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Having seen Pinochet and Qadaffi and others who made that deal, there is ZERO chance that Putin steps down. Candidly, most Russians might actually seriously object to that - having their leader imposed upon them by the West when we arent even at war (yet). So given that reality, how do you see this playing out then and what is the best way to bring it to the best conclusion that is actually possible?
 
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