Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

[Majors]

It is not at all clear that the LV roster was stronger than NCST when you factor in the transfers (and the loss of Zaay). That was my answer. A team of seniors has advantages over a team of freshman and Sophomores.

No that is your spin answer. There was more talent/stars on Tennessee than NC State, that was the question. If players transferred out well that was KH job to secure them as she inherited them. I don't blame her or the player but she inherited the talent that chose to leave.

 

[madtownvol]

No that is your spin answer. There was more talent/stars on Tennessee than NC State, that was the question. If players transferred out well that was KH job to secure them as she inherited them. I don't blame her or the player but she inherited the talent that chose to leave.

That is an interesting definition of "inherited'. I will leave it at that.

 

[Majors]

That is an interesting definition of "inherited'. I will leave it at that.

Leave it! When you take over a program, you inherit.

 

[Darth_Vol]

Take away the best player from any of these final four teams and they would not look so dynamic either....Coach Kellie did all she could do with this beat up roster....

Uconn without Paige would be a far different team...
Louisville without the little blond guard, far different team...
Stanford without Jones would be a far different team...
South Carolina without Boston far different team...

Horston was greatly missed...

Because this offense was a well-oiled machine when Horston was in the lineup?

They say the off-season is when players really develop. That goes for coaches too. Time for Kellie to finally come up with an offensive scheme that maximizes her talent and doesn't just involve trying to out-athlete the competition...

 

[Darth_Vol]

The thread was created Dec 19 and we improved in all 4 categories over the course of the season. Are they good numbers? No. But it shows the team’s ability to improve and that’s a primary focus for me as a fan. I knew we were offensively challenged but the ladies got better and that’s something to be proud of.

Again, compare her first two seasons here with this one. The numbers aren't getting better...

 

[Aladywhovolunteer]

Wes Moore seems like a good man. I was pulling for him last night. Large home crowds sometimes affect referree's decisions. Hard job refereeing. I know from experience. I loved Pat Summitt. Graduated from college with her. Spent time with her at several venues. Great lady. One of the most profound things she ever said (paraphrased) was she would fine it easier to support men coaching women's teams....when she saw women head coaches of men's teams.
No disrespect intended towards Coach Moore. Just proud of the UT and it's unparalleled support for women coaching women.

 

[VOLINVONORE]

The thread was created Dec 19 and we improved in all 4 categories over the course of the season. Are they good numbers? No. But it shows the team’s ability to improve and that’s a primary focus for me as a fan. I knew we were offensively challenged but the ladies got better and that’s something to be proud of.

Still went to the sweet sixteen with an AllAmerican guard injured the last part of the season and all of the NCAAs with a team which included 5 Freshmen. Actually not too bad and a big improvement over the past 3-4 years.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

Adequate talent got her fired and him to the dance in year one.

So Kellie gets credit for taking Holly's adequate talent and getting to the dance two times in the two years it was held, getting to the SS in her third year, and finishing in third place in the SEC in all three of her years, whereas Holly didn't finish as high as third in the league for four years prior to Kellie's arrival, and hadn't been to the SS for her last three years? Kellie gets credit for that if Wes gets credit for that first year in NCSt? Turnabout is fair play?

 

[youcancallmeAl]

Except Bill had equity of 2 SB rings as a DC for the Giants.

We're talking about head coaches. Wanna move the goal posts to compare records as graduate assistants?

 

[youcancallmeAl]

So based off rankings, Holly left a better roster that was my question.

And Kellie has done very well with that roster plus her own adds, better than Holly.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

Again, compare her first two seasons here with this one. The numbers aren't getting better...

Last year when the season ended you described the loss to Michigan as an unmitigated disaster, one that would destroy any upward momentum that Kellie had built, and the program would suffer for years for it. You said if she can't make the SS it proves she can't coach at a P-5 school.

This year she makes the SS, despite her all-everythng player injured and on the bench, but you ignore that and you attack on a different front, offensive stats, as if that's all there is to basketball. You don't present the whole picture, the 25 win season, the SS, the progress in attracting talent such as Powell and Jackson and Pissott. And you don't present the impressive defensive and rebounding stats accumulated during the SS season. You always present only the negative. It's obvious from your MO that you have an agenda, and it is to try to demoralize the LV fan base by creating doubt in everyone's mind about Kellie.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

Again, compare her first two seasons here with this one. The numbers aren't getting better...

The wins and tournament results are.

 

[Darth_Vol]

Still went to the sweet sixteen with an AllAmerican guard injured the last part of the season and all of the NCAAs with a team which included 5 Freshmen. Actually not too bad and a big improvement over the past 3-4 years.

There were no All-Americans on this team. In fact, Kellie has never developed an All-American player. Imagine how far the team could have gone if they could hold on to the ball and actually put up some points?

Whether looking at the stats, or just using your eyes, there is no debating the offense was wretched this season. In fact, all three seasons Kellie has been here have ranked among the worst offenses in Lady Vol program history. I would invite you to take off your orange colored glasses for a moment and consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, there are some flaws with Kellie's offensive philosophy...

 

[youcancallmeAl]

There were no All-Americans on this team. In fact, Kellie has never developed an All-American player. Imagine how far the team could have gone if they could hold on to the ball and actually put up some points?

Whether looking at the stats, or just using your eyes, there is no debating the offense was wretched this season. In fact, all three seasons Kellie has been here have ranked among the worst offenses in Lady Vol program history. I would invite you to take off your orange colored glasses for a moment and consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, there are some flaws with Kellie's offensive philosophy...

What about her defensive and rebounding philosophies? I would invite you to take off your "Kellie is mid-major" blinders and consider that 1) PAT SUMMITT repeatedly said that offense sells tickets, defense wins games, and rebounding wins championships, and 2) the possibility that maybe, just maybe there is enough good about Kellie that we will continue to make progress and eventually achieve the goal. She wasn't dealt a hand of great offensive players. She's likely focused on defense and rebounding now because that gives us the best chance to win. And winning is the goal, not finishing upward in program history for any particular statistical category on either side of the ball.

BTW, how come you only compare her defensive numbers to our program history, but not the ncaa at large. This has been an awfully good program, as you know. It shouldn't be surprising that there have been some very good offensive teams here.

 

[madtownvol]

Last year when the season ended you described the loss to Michigan as an unmitigated disaster, one that would destroy any upward momentum that Kellie had built, and the program would suffer for years for it. You said if she can't make the SS it proves she can't coach at a P-5 school.

This year she makes the SS, despite her all-everythng player injured and on the bench, but you ignore that and you attack on a different front, offensive stats, as if that's all there is to basketball. You don't present the whole picture, the 25 win season, the SS, the progress in attracting talent such as Powell and Jackson and Pissott. And you don't present the impressive defensive and rebounding stats accumulated during the SS season. You always present only the negative. It's obvious from your MO that you have an agenda, and it is to try to demoralize the LV fan base by creating doubt in everyone's mind about Kellie.

Moving the goal posts is Elvee/Darth's M.O.

 

[Majors]

And Kellie has done very well with that roster plus her own adds, better than Holly.

She has exceeded expectations by getting to the Sweet 16, which should always be the standard for the minimum. And finished 3rd in a year they were predicted to finish second. The injuries are part of the game and it looks like she is hopefully addressing the teams lack of speed, but more importantly she needs to start winning the games that matter and not being Tennessee state champions. Compete with UConn, SC, Stanford etc. and not lose the lesser ones. So I disagree that she has done well, she has met the minimum. That's what makes this great, we don't have to agree and still support.

 

[Majors]

We're talking about head coaches. Wanna move the goal posts to compare records as graduate assistants?

So Coach Harpers best accomplishment to date is one Sweet Sixteen with Missouri State in year 15.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

She has exceeded expectations by getting to the Sweet 16, which should always be the standard for the minimum. And finished 3rd in a year they were predicted to finish second. The injuries are part of the game and it looks like she is hopefully addressing the teams lack of speed, but more importantly she needs to start winning the games that matter and not being Tennessee state champions. Compete with UConn, SC, Stanford etc. and not lose the lesser ones. So I disagree that she has done well, she has met the minimum. That's what makes this great, we don't have to agree and still support.

I like your last sentence. We obviously disagree on what are reasonable, rational expectations for Kellie taking over and advancing a program year over year from the place where the program sat when she started at Tennessee. You are unimpressed, and think her accomplishments so far are the minimum expected and give her no praise or credit for them. I think her accomplishments are as best as could be expected considering the context of the entire situation, and am pleased and hopeful it will translate into more progress in the future. We can hold those different opinions and still support the program.

 

[Majors]

I like your last sentence. We obviously disagree on what are reasonable, rational expectations for Kellie taking over and advancing a program year over year from the place where the program sat when she started at Tennessee. You are unimpressed, and think her accomplishments so far are the minimum expected and give her no praise or credit for them. I think her accomplishments are as best as could be expected considering the context of the entire situation, and am pleased and hopeful it will translate into more progress in the future. We can hold those different opinions and still support the program.

That’s fair and I appreciate the honesty of being able to disagree.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

So Coach Harpers best accomplishment to date is one Sweet Sixteen with Missouri State in year 15.

in 18 years as a head coach, her best tournament accomplishments to date are 2 SS appearances, 7 NCAA appearances, including four schools. Not to mention she took a moribund Tennessee program from the lower middle of the pack to third place finishes in the SEC, showing significant program improvement from the starting point.

In his first 17 years as a head coach, John Wooden had been to the NCAA a total of 5 times, never finishing higher than 3d place in his regional. He won it all in his 18th year. I understand it was harder to get to the NCAA tournament in those days, but the point is the same: Some are later bloomers than others. Give her the benefit of the doubt for 5 total years (2 more from here) and see where she is then.

 

[glv98]

Whatever her previous accomplishments, KJH has the opportunity of her coaching lifetime in her hands right now. Question on her was always can she coach at an elite level, bc in 18 yrs she never had. Solid, but not elite. Now for the first time she has the talent, the facilities, the support to make it happen. And at her alma mater! Exciting time for her.

Every reason to be optimistic she can do it, she's smart, capable, excellent at PR, her team loves her and seems totally bought in. By all reasonable measures, they've improved every year under her. Lately she's definitely shown she can recruit on the next level.

Next year alot of the standby excuse/reasons for our persistent problems like turnovers and bad shooting will not be available. Won't be able to blame it on lack of talent, lack of quickness, etc. If our offense remains a stagnate mess we have a systemic problem.

Not saying she has to win a dang natty next year, tho I realize alot of that improved talent is just for one season. But she at least has to start winning some big games. Gotta beat elite to be elite.

Can't wait to see what the coaching staff comes up with for this group.

 

[Voluble2]

Here is a research project for someone. What were the turnover numbers like at her previous coaching stops?

That might tell you more about whether she will be able to fix the problem here than looking at who she is recruiting.

 

[glv98]

Here is a research project for someone. What were the turnover numbers like at her previous coaching stops?

That might tell you more about whether she will be able to fix the problem here than looking at who she is recruiting.

Been asked and answered before. Poor shooting and high turnovers have followed KJH throughout her coaching stops. However, she's never had the kind of talent she's got now. Not sure how much of the difference that makes. And I do think that will be a big tell next year. As I said, if the offense next year still looks like Upward Basketball down at the church gym, we have a big problem.

 

[Majors]

in 18 years as a head coach, her best tournament accomplishments to date are 2 SS appearances, 7 NCAA appearances, including four schools. Not to mention she took a moribund Tennessee program from the lower middle of the pack to third place finishes in the SEC, showing significant program improvement from the starting point.

In his first 17 years as a head coach, John Wooden had been to the NCAA a total of 5 times, never finishing higher than 3d place in his regional. He won it all in his 18th year. I understand it was harder to get to the NCAA tournament in those days, but the point is the same: Some are later bloomers than others. Give her the benefit of the doubt for 5 total years (2 more from here) and see where she is then.

I won't count her Sweet Sixteen here as an accomplishment as those are expected as minimum. Elite 8, Final 4, Championships are accomplishments. Different standards for blue bloods than Missouri Valley.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

I won't count her Sweet Sixteen here as an accomplishment as those are expected as minimum. Elite 8, Final 4, Championships are accomplishments. Different standards for blue bloods than Missouri Valley.

Kellie says: You're a tough crowd, I tell ya. I don't get no respect.