War in Ukraine

#22,251
#22,251
Rasputin_Vol said:
Putin is far from perfect, but I'm also aware that he isn't the person that the media and the White House portrays him as, either. Hell, the US had to work with Stalin to fight Germany. Do you think that was a marriage based on liberties and freedoms? Or do you think it was a pragmatic arrangement made where we weighed out who the most pressing danger was?

We live in a complex world. Sometimes, you have to make deals with people you may not fully agree with. We worked with Stalin, Saddam and The Mujahedeen for some alleged greater good.

But you come after me for wanting to see this Biden Administration and the networks and systems around them fail and get us out of this quagmire halfway around the world?
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Hahaha “far from perfect”.
You have said time and again that fascist dictators who use force and curtail freedoms and liberty should be executed and burn in hell. Is this true of Putin. Yes or no? Should he be executed? Simple question
 
#22,252
#22,252
Rasputin_Vol said:
1. In an ideal world, yes, they should have that sovereignty. In an ideal world... Would we allow Cuba or Mexico to join a military alliance with China or Russia?
2. That is the people of Russia's fight to wage if they are genuinely dissatisfied with Putin. My concern is what is going on here in America. Nothing in Ukraine is of benefit or consequence to me or any other average American. We don't need to send weapons, billions of dollars or boots on the ground over there to resolve that. That is a European issue. Let them handle their own mess. We've got our own problems to deal with.
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Ras, don't go getting all rational on people. No one here realizes that what happens in Ukraine will never affect us. It might affect Europe, but that's their problem, not ours.
 
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#22,255
#22,255
Rickyvol77 said:
Do you believe the Ukrainian government was elected by the Ukraine people? Is it legitimate and sovereign? Does Putin deserve a space in hell too?
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1. I would say the last free and fair elections that Ukraine had with the country intact was when Yanukovich was elected in 2010. With the country fractured after the US lead coup in 2014, any elections afterwards likely didn't include the large portions of the Donbas regions, so it likely does favor a more Western lean at the present time.
2. The question of whether Ukraine or the regime in Kiev is legitimate and sovereign rests on the belief of if you think the West is doing a lot of the big decisionmaking for them or not. If you believe that the regime in Kiev is legitimate and sovereign, I would think that you are either ignorant or just trying to gaslight me.
3. I'm sure there are things out there that most people do that can send them to hell. But with regards to his actions in Ukraine? I don't think he will be hellhound for that.
 
#22,256
#22,256
KB5252 said:
He is the same devil we are dealing with over here...... Don't kid yourself. That's where your premise on this affair falls apart. You believe the enemy of my enemy is my friend. No offense but that's pinnacle of naive.
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Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. But the main thing is that he is going against the enemies we have here, and that directly affects all of us here. These people need to be defeated by any means necessary.
 
#22,261
#22,261
Rasputin_Vol said:
1. In an ideal world, yes, they should have that sovereignty. In an ideal world... Would we allow Cuba or Mexico to join a military alliance with China or Russia?
2. That is the people of Russia's fight to wage if they are genuinely dissatisfied with Putin. My concern is what is going on here in America. Nothing in Ukraine is of benefit or consequence to me or any other average American. We don't need to send weapons, billions of dollars or boots on the ground over there to resolve that. That is a European issue. Let them handle their own mess. We've got our own problems to deal with.
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First of all they were not about to join NATO. For all intents and purposes Cuba was an Eastern Bloc nation. We allowed their alliance with the Soviet Union.

This may very well affect us if Russia goes any further than Ukraine. It behooves us to block them in Ukraine so they don't continue on into Poland or another NATO country.
 
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#22,263
#22,263
Rasputin_Vol said:
1. I would say the last free and fair elections that Ukraine had with the country intact was when Yanukovich was elected in 2010. With the country fractured after the US lead coup in 2014, any elections afterwards likely didn't include the large portions of the Donbas regions, so it likely does favor a more Western lean at the present time.
2. The question of whether Ukraine or the regime in Kiev is legitimate and sovereign rests on the belief of if you think the West is doing a lot of the big decisionmaking for them or not. If you believe that the regime in Kiev is legitimate and sovereign, I would think that you are either ignorant or just trying to gaslight me.
3. I'm sure there are things out there that most people do that can send them to hell. But with regards to his actions in Ukraine? I don't think he will be hellhound for that.
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1) Hahahahahah so a government elected by the people and recognized by literally every country in the world including Putin is not viewed as legitimate by YOU because you don’t like that the West and Russia had influences in it but you only dislike the West being involved. Despite a fair election and a clear mandate. Gotcha. So you really do not believe in self determination there
2) they are sovereign. Period. You don’t like it because they don’t want to be a Russian vassal state and want to be free to make their own decisions. Which you hate because they are pro West
3) and again you can’t even answer a simple question. Your OWN statements say anyone fascist who dictates and curtails freedoms and liberty should be executed in hell. So in your opinion , Putin doesn’t belong why?

Doctors and police officers and nurses should be executed And hell but not Putin?
 
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#22,264
#22,264
volgr said:
You do realize it is Ukraine, not Russia who is running low on fuel, vehicles and supplies, yes? While having tens of thousands of troops now stuck in Donbas and being encircled. But hey, keep reading the Kiev Independent and Nexta, they will whisper the lies you want to hear.
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Still listening to TASS eh?

PT Barnum would be proud.
 
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#22,265
#22,265
Rickyvol77 said:
1) Hahahahahah so a government elected by the people and recognized by literally every country in the world including Putin is not viewed as legitimate by YOU because you don’t like that the West and Russia had influences in it but you only dislike the West being involved. Despite a fair election and a clear mandate. Gotcha. So you really do not believe in self determination there
2) they are sovereign. Period. You don’t like it because they don’t want to be a Russian vassal state and want to be free to make their own decisions. Which you hate because they are pro West
3) and again you can’t even answer a simple question. Your OWN statements say anyone fascist who dictates and curtails freedoms and liberty should be executed in hell. So in your opinion , Putin doesn’t belong why?

Doctors and police officers and nurses should be executed And hell but not Putin?
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Damn man, just read what you wrote. You have way too much anger.
 
#22,266
#22,266
Rickyvol77 said:
Hahaha “far from perfect”.
You have said time and again that fascist dictators who use force and curtail freedoms and liberty should be executed and burn in hell. Is this true of Putin. Yes or no? Should he be executed? Simple question
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And once again, the propaganda is so thick you can cut it with a knife with regards to Putin. He's neither an angel or a devil. He's caught in the middle just like the rest of us, the only difference is that he is the leader of a nuclear superpower. If Putin was the guy you all proclaim him to be, he would have been nuke bombing Turkey when they shot down a plane on the Syria/Turkish border and when their ambassador to Turkey was assassinated there. Not to mention, he showed a great deal of restraint over the 8 years of dealing with the Donbas attacks on his border without doing anything.

Hell, at what point will a damn American president jump the border to fix the killing, invading immigrants and human trafficking on the Mexican border? If anything, we need to be taking a page out of Putin's book. It's not like we haven't had to do just that before...
 
#22,267
#22,267
Rasputin_Vol said:
What's the message by circling around in Poland? Is it to be provocative?
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What if a Russian plane or missile battery was lighting up (tracking with targeting radar) some of our planes like the tanker orbiting close to the F-15, and the message to Russia was don't go there? Is a warning of being able to self defend provocative? Neither plane strayed across Russian, Ukrainian, or Belarussian borders. Tankers are relatively easy targets without self defense - makes sense to have fighter support in some cases.
 
#22,268
#22,268
Rasputin_Vol said:
Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. But the main thing is that he is going against the enemies we have here, and that directly affects all of us here. These people need to be defeated by any means necessary.
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Define these people? Are you not aware Putin is a member of the global elite? Are you not aware he is building toward competing against our interests globally? Unless your interests are his interests I'm not sure how you couch these beliefs. If you believe his interests are in your best interests we come right back again to being naive.
 
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#22,269
#22,269
Rasputin_Vol said:
And once again, the propaganda is so thick you can cut it with a knife with regards to Putin. He's neither an angel or a devil. He's caught in the middle just like the rest of us, the only difference is that he is the leader of a nuclear superpower. If Putin was the guy you all proclaim him to be, he would have been nuke bombing Turkey when they shot down a plane on the Syria/Turkish border and when their ambassador to Turkey was assassinated there. Not to mention, he showed a great deal of restraint over the 8 years of dealing with the Donbas attacks on his border without doing anything.

Hell, at what point will a damn American president jump the border to fix the killing, invading immigrants and human trafficking on the Mexican border? If anything, we need to be taking a page out of Putin's book. It's not like we haven't had to do just that before...
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So you are denying that Putin is an autocrat fascist who controls and shuts down differing opinions? That has used the police and Army to capture, kill and imprison dissenters and people who disagreed with him? That he uses his military to attempt to dictate to sovereign countries how they need to operate? Yes or no. Because you keep tap dancing around those facts because you have listed literally every US or Western pillar of society as such and said they should be executed and burn in hell simply because you disagree with them or because of perceived attacks on freedom and liberties.
but with your Putin pie, you over look and excuse his warmonging and then say “he’s not perfect, he’s no angel” etc.

Can you really not see your massive hypocrisy here? It’s literally why 99.9% of this board thinks you are FOS right now
 
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#22,270
#22,270
Septic said:
No, it doesn't but it'd be a tough ask to squeeze a penny between what was said and what was implied.

I think John Adams wasn't much different from politicians of today, he told his audience what they wanted to hear whether he personally believed it or not.
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Yeah, the Treaty of Tripoli article 11 is pretty clear where as to its intent to convey

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Adams and the US wanted to be sure to convey that they were speaking as sovereign states not religious powers (like they had dealt with during the crusades, Byzantium, etc) and to also make clear America was not at war with Islam.
 
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#22,272
#22,272
Sea Ray said:
First of all they were not about to join NATO. For all intents and purposes Cuba was an Eastern Bloc nation. We allowed their alliance with the Soviet Union.

This may very well affect us if Russia goes any further than Ukraine. It behooves us to block them in Ukraine so they don't continue on into Poland or another NATO country.
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We still has sanctions and embargoes on Cuba right now and we tried a countless number of times to try to overthrow Castro in the 1960s and 70s. So yes, we have clearly shown belligerence towards our neighbors due to their political or sovereign choices.

As far as Ukraine, the peaceful and pragmatic approach would have simply to have Ukraine be a neutral state. And really, that isn't some negotiation that we (the US) needs to be a part of. That is a European matter for Europeans to address.
 
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#22,273
#22,273
Rasputin_Vol said:
We still has sanctions and embargoes on Cuba right now and we tried a countless number of times to try to overthrow Castro in the 1960s and 70s. So yes, we have clearly shown belligerence towards our neighbors due to their political or sovereign choices.

As far as Ukraine, the peaceful and pragmatic approach would have simply to have Ukraine be a neutral state. And really, that isn't some negotiation that we (the US) needs to be a part of. That is a European matter for Europeans to address.
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Ukraine can do what they choose to do. It’s not Putin’s choice to dictate what a free country does
 
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#22,274
#22,274
Rickyvol77 said:
So you are denying that Putin is an autocrat fascist who controls and shuts down differing opinions?
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He is an autocrat. And he would likely be a fascist in a loose sense. And I'm certain that he has taken measures to shut down dissenters.

He's no better or worse than most other world leaders.

Is Joe Biden an autocrat fascist who controls and shuts down differing opinions?
 
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#22,275
#22,275
Maybe I'm mis-reading this thread, but it seems like everyone here is a war mongering fool. Hell yeah, let's get in another ****ing war because our leaders have a bigger swinging dick than Russia does. We can win a nuclear war because they won't drop bombs on the population centers and everything will be okay. Once the first nuclear bomb explodes anywhere in the world, our life as we know it is over. No more internet, no more iPhone, no more trip to the grocery store. It will be carnage, starvation, every person for themselves.
 
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