War in Ukraine

For the sake of argument, let's agree Ukraine is corrupt. How many countries that we support are not corrupt? If we went around the globe demanding that countries become uncorrupted and remain that way for some period of time before we decide they are worthy of support, most of the world would be in another sphere of influence. China is picking up countries and resources not by supporting non corrupt countries, but by buying corrupt politicians. Maybe the best way to counter corruption is to set an example and show people a better way? I'll admit in looking at South and Central America and our history that we suck at it though ... or the other option is that some ethnicities and countries are so steeped in corruption that they can't find a way out assuming there is a desire to do so.

Oh, that is a most valid argument. In reality, when you leave the US and get a reverse world opinion of us, we are as measureably corrupt as any government. No two countries have ever fought a war against each other on their own. It's always at the beckoning of two corrupt governments disagreeing over something and sending it's citizens in for the kill shot. Or one single power sending in black ops to cripple one governement and install what is thought they should be, even though their culture would never yield it with any puppet gov't.

I kind of view the gov't as biblical Pharisees and Saducees (sp?)
 
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Because Biden is the head of state of another nuclear armed nation, who also happens to be the real power of NATO. When the POTUS says "this man cannot remain in power" in a major speech, it becomes the actual policy of the USofA and everyone in it to effect regime change in Russia to remove Putin as head of state. That is very very close to a declaration of war. In fact, one of the rationales that Bush gave for going into Iraq is that Saddam wanted to kill a FORMER president. Consider if Xi made this very statement about Biden, we would be considering it as a prelude to war. The intel services and military take this stuff as gospel from their CIC and then start making plans/steps to actualize it.

It was completely irresponsible to the point of stupidity. Yes, we all might WANT this to be the case, the USA could even be trying in multiple unspoken ways to make this happen but you do not say "cannot remain in power", without there being consequences.

Again, he didnt say, this man SHOULD not be in power in our modern age, nor even that the Russian people should kick him out of power. Instead, he signaled that it is now US policy to remove Putin via any means necessary. Again, this isn't some comedian on late-night television, some bloviating Senator Snort, or even the leader of some tiny backwater like Greenland or a spineless country like Canada - it was the United States, who effects regime change for breakfast and sh**s new "democracies" by lunchtime.

Hopes that helps shed light on things.
That's a very good argument and I get your point of view and it seems most here do also. I am still glad he did it. I wish he'd been a little more eloquent but it was an off the cuff and a spur of the moment thing. Besides no one ever accused Biden of being eloquent. When Putin alluded to his nukes shortly after the invasion began the world's perspective on the war changed. The potential for Russia to take a nonconventional approach seemed possible. It looked to me like world began tiptoeing around Putin and the entire issue. It was like for God's sake don't anyone piss him off or challenge him. He might do something awful. Some argued that we (the US and allies) should stay silent, that it would signal strength. I don't agree. I think it showed him that we will react to his threats with fear.

No, I'm OK with what Biden said. It might serve to encourage those nearest to Putin to dispose of him. Maybe just one person. No one on the outside is going to be able to get to him. It will have to come from inside.

PS: If he decides he needs to move on someone else he knows his military isn't up to it. So, he says in so many words, if you try to stop me I may have to use nukes. We may wish we and the rest of the world had stood up now.
 
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That's a very good argument and I get your point of view and it seems most here do also. I am still glad he did it. I wish he'd been a little more eloquent but it was an off the cuff and a spur of the moment thing. Besides no one ever accused Biden of being eloquent. When Putin alluded to his nukes shortly after the invasion began the world's perspective on the war changed. The potential for Russia to take a nonconventional approach seemed possible. It looked to me like world began tiptoeing around Putin and the entire issue. It was like for God's sake don't anyone piss him off or challenge him. He might do something awful. Some argued that we (the US and allies) should stay silent, that it would signal strength. I don't agree. I think it showed him that we will react to his threats with fear.

No, I'm OK with what Biden said. It might serve to encourage those nearest to Putin to dispose of him. Maybe just one person. No one on the outside is going to be able to get to him. It will have to come from inside.

PS: If he decides he needs to move on someone else he knows his military isn't up to it. So, he says in so many words, if you try to stop me I may have to use nukes. We may wish we and the rest of the world had stood up now.

Same as everything else that falls from his brain to his tongue.
 
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That's a very good argument and I get your point of view and it seems most here do also. I am still glad he did it. I wish he'd been a little more eloquent but it was an off the cuff and a spur of the moment thing. Besides no one ever accused Biden of being eloquent. When Putin alluded to his nukes shortly after the invasion began the world's perspective on the war changed. The potential for Russia to take a nonconventional approach seemed possible. It looked to me like world began tiptoeing around Putin and the entire issue. It was like for God's sake don't anyone piss him off or challenge him. He might do something awful. Some argued that we (the US and allies) should stay silent, that it would signal strength. I don't agree. I think it showed him that we will react to his threats with fear.

No, I'm OK with what Biden said. It might serve to encourage those nearest to Putin to dispose of him. Maybe just one person. No one on the outside is going to be able to get to him. It will have to come from inside.

PS: If he decides he needs to move on someone else he knows his military isn't up to it. So, he says in so many words, if you try to stop me I may have to use nukes. We may wish we and the rest of the world had stood up now.

The problem is, I don't think the WH policy actually changed at all. Biden just made yet another innumerable FUP. Thats why they are walking it back as fast as they can.

Meanwhile, we get no benefit from it. It isnt that this will encourage Putin's internal enemies to overthrow him, but rather this will strengthen his hand inside Russia actually because he can use it as an excuse for ever more crack down. The only way Putin's enemies get him is if he shows he is weak.

This isn't like Trump's bellicose statements. People understood that Trump is savy but unpredictable and sometimes petty. His language is bombastic and other leaders know to take him seriously but not literally because that is not his shtick. Also, that Trump relies on personal diplomacy efforts to solve the most urgent issues. Biden on the other hand, is a puppet on the hand of a policy team. When he goes off message, that is a bigger problem because no one knows if that is his own errant ramblings or if it is a policy change from the people who actually run things.
 
Yep then they couldn’t root him out of a cave . My point was actually that a Bin laden isn’t anything like a Putin or any other first world leader .
They could have but didn't like the risk and tried to play politics. I'm guessing they didn't think we'd still be there 2 decades later
 
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Ukraine releases list of identities of more than 600 alleged FSB agents, some of whom could possibly be operating in Britain.

Ukraine has released a list of what it claims are the identities of more than 600 Russian spies, including one who appears to fancy himself as James Bond, in a bid to embarrass Moscow.

The list of 620 agents working for Russia’s FSB security agency, who are meant to stay in the shadows, exposes their passports, phone numbers and even their drinking habits.

One alleged FSB agent, according to the list, has a Skype address that includes the phrase “jamesbond007” as well as the characters “DB9”, referring to Bond’s iconic Aston Martin.

Another agent is said to have a taste for “premium cars”, while a third is a heavy drinker who “systematically violates traffic regulations”.

The leak may lead to smirks in Western intelligence agencies and comparisons to Johnny English, the hapless spy played on film by Rowan Atkinson.

But Ukrainian officials also accused the spies of being involved in “criminal” activity in Europe, without giving details. It raises the prospect that some of the people identified on the list are working as spies in Britain.

The entries for each spy contained their date and place of birth, passport number, their “registration address” and in some cases car licence plate numbers and details on their finances. A handful of entries include the spy’s home address.

The Telegraph has not independently verified the list, which if confirmed would prove to be a major embarrassment for Moscow that may compromise many of its spies.

Ukrainian officials did not disclose how they had obtained the list. But Aric Toler, a researcher for the investigative website Bellingcat, said some of the data appeared to be based on previous leaks of sensitive Russian intelligence.

Last week, Russia reportedly launched a hunt for “Western spies” in the FSB, implying that Moscow fears the agency has been infiltrated.

Earlier in March, an FSB whistleblower claimed its spies had been kept in the dark about the plans for an invasion of Ukraine, going on to describe the war as a “total failure” akin to the collapse of Nazi Germany.

Vladimir Putin, the Russian leader, has reportedly placed some senior FSB figures under house arrest. The move appeared to be a reprisal for detailed plans of Russia’s invasion being obtained and disclosed by Western intelligence agencies.

The FSB, which is a successor to the Soviet-era KGB, works mainly as a domestic security agency but has been linked to assassinations abroad.

Earlier on Monday, Bellingcat revealed that Boris Nemtsov, a Russian opposition politician, was shadowed by an agent linked to an FSB hit squad before he was murdered in 2015.

The investigation, which worked alongside the BBC and The Insider, found that Mr Nemtsov was followed by the agent on at least 13 journeys by train and plane before his death.

Last year, a former head of MI6 warned that only “10 per cent” of Russia’s operations in Europe have been uncovered.

“We see the extent of Russian aggressive intelligence activities across Europe,” said Sir John Sawers, who led MI6 from 2009 to 2014.

“We probably only know 10 per cent of what they’re doing. There will be a great deal that intelligence services do that we’re simply not aware of,” he added.

Mr Putin is said to be increasingly paranoid about members of his inner circle, as well as Russian intelligence operatives, trying to betray him.

Sergei Shoigu, Russia’s defence minister, disappeared from public view for a two-week period beginning on March 11, fuelling speculation that he had been jailed or otherwise removed from his position.

He then resurfaced during a Zoom meeting of Russia’s security council. A Russian official explained his absence by saying that “the defence minister has a lot on his mind right now.”
 
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The problem is, I don't think the WH policy actually changed at all. Biden just made yet another innumerable FUP. Thats why they are walking it back as fast as they can.

Meanwhile, we get no benefit from it. It isnt that this will encourage Putin's internal enemies to overthrow him, but rather this will strengthen his hand inside Russia actually because he can use it as an excuse for ever more crack down. The only way Putin's enemies get him is if he shows he is weak.

This isn't like Trump's bellicose statements. People understood that Trump is savy but unpredictable and sometimes petty. His language is bombastic and other leaders know to take him seriously but not literally because that is not his shtick. Also, that Trump relies on personal diplomacy efforts to solve the most urgent issues. Biden on the other hand, is a puppet on the hand of a policy team. When he goes off message, that is a bigger problem because no one knows if that is his own errant ramblings or if it is a policy change from the people who actually run things.

I would argue that Biden is downplaying his statement rather than walking it back. Here is what he said a few minutes ago: "I was expressing my outrage. He shouldn't remain in power, just like, bad people shouldn't continue to do bad things but it doesn't mean we have a fundamental policy to do anything to take Putin down in any way." You can read it at CNN if you dare go there.

Savvy wouldn't be the first adjective that comes to mind when I think of the former president.
 
This sounds like a woman's shopping logic.
lol.....I'm just trying to establish a baseline. It goes partially with the short term vs. long term debate.
Do you fix a bridge in need of refurbishing now or wait 10 years until it can't be put off any longer but the cost will be twice as much?

Plus there may be a Ukrainian angle in there somewhere.
 
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