War in Ukraine

[DuckInAPen]

You won't find that, but probably you already new that.

You're correct on both counts. I simply wanted to highlight the fact that we have zero treaty obligations toward Ukraine.

A common foe makes them political allies, which is why they were petitioning to join NATO.

I wouldn't object to this loose use of the term if it didn't lend itself so readily to talk of us "abandoning our ally [X]." Applying the term "ally" to a state with which we are not actually allied generates widespread misunderstanding among the nation at large as to what our obligations toward such "allies" actually are.

 

[DuckInAPen]

We've been giving them military aid. Wouldn't that make them our ally?

It would make them a country to whom we've been giving military aid. Were Iraq and Afghanistan our allies in the '80s?

 

[headhunter15]

Depending on Putin's grand plan, I don't think it beyond reason to believe Russia and China could become military allies. Both appear to have eyes on expansion. Again, comparing to WWII, it would be like when Germany and Japan joined forces.

Don’t want war, but the world cannot allow that too happen. America needs to start kissing up to India in regards to China like yesterday.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Inorder to make an Omelet, you have to break some eggs Ras.

Just like in Spanish, "eggs" can also mean testicles... Why do the rest of us have to break our balls to achieve some selfish objective that doesn't help any of us?

 

[Orangeburst]

So now our IC is so deeply imbedded in Russia that we know the exact hour? That screams BS or at a minimum lets Putin know we have the SIGNIT on him.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

For those that are mocking the sanctions, what do you propose we do?

1. Sanction
2. Concede Ukraine
3. Go to war
4. Insert alternative here

Let Europeans and Ukrainians handle it.

 

[headhunter15]

Let Europeans and Ukrainians handle it.

Think Europe is so full of chicken sh*t leaders. Need more Churchill’s.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I've been asking this question for a week and no ones committed to anything but blaming biden for putin invading another country.

The monday morning quarterbacks are out in force today.

I've answered this several times. No ducking or dodging going on.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

We should care about any ally that get's invaded by Russia.

Since when is Ukraine an ally?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Want to talk sanctions? What if the CCP and Putin are in cahoots and put sanctions on the US? I mean it would be catastrophic for everyone but a Great Reset

I think the contrary is true. The Great Reset folks don't have that scenario likely in their planning. Or even if they do, I don't think they have everything in place yet to counter such actions.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

How much oil are we still importing from Russia? I noticed our first tranche of sanctions hasn’t included not buying their oil. We’re not very serious about this.

Are they also not going to receive gas from Nordstream 1?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I'm not mocking sanctions I believe they do cause pain. Not enough to stop Russia from taking Ukraine obviously. I would be working to get Finland and Sweden to join NATO. Expansion of NATO is the one thing Putin fears most.

So your answer is to ratchet up hostilities... not cool them off?

 

[C-south]

For those that are mocking the sanctions, what do you propose we do?

1. Sanction
2. Concede Ukraine
3. Go to war
4. Insert alternative here

Dims do nothing to stop our own country from being invaded so why care about anyone else? I can see where a couple folks might owe them a favor though.

 

[DuckInAPen]

I would say we’re friendly, but yes, you have a point. Regardless of official status, I don’t have a problem with supporting them, just not with our troops.

That's fair. My intention is to show the fallacy of appeals to our "alliance" with Ukraine when it's asserted that we must come to their aid. If there are prudential or humanitarian arguments for why we should support Ukraine, they should be weighed strictly on their own merits.

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

You're correct on both counts. I simply wanted to highlight the fact that we have zero treaty obligations toward Ukraine.



I wouldn't object to this loose use of the term if it didn't lend itself so readily to talk of us "abandoning our ally [X]." Applying the term "ally" to a state with which we are not actually allied generates widespread misunderstanding among the nation at large as to what our obligations toward such "allies" actually are.

That's the point of it. When the term "ally" is applied so loosely it can be used to describe any country and justify intervening anywhere and everywhere.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

You won't find that, but probably you already new that. Certainly you understand why we'd be in aligned together against Russia who has looked to topple a regime that overthrew one put into place by Moscow. A common foe makes them political allies, which is why they were petitioning to join NATO.

Interesting... so when the topic of NATO expanding east comes up, the neocons and neo-liberals say that there was nothing in writing that said NATO was not going to expand. But now, we are justifying having a military obligation with Ukraine based on an unwritten agreement.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Putin's land grab attempts are reminiscent of what Hitler did leading into WWII. JMO.

Hyperbole. There is no reason at all for this to escalate that far.

 

[DuckInAPen]

Why arming Ukrainian 'resistance fighters' would be a really bad idea - Responsible Statecraft

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I would say we’re friendly, but yes, you have a point. Regardless of official status, I don’t have a problem with supporting them, just not with our troops.

People continue to say this and I'm just not sure what would be the point.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

We've been giving them military aid. Wouldn't that make them our ally?

We gave arms to Iran in the 1980s. Did that mean they were our allies?

 

[0nelilreb]

Since when is Ukraine an ally?

Since it benefitted us to call them that and choose one benevolent dictator over another one . This thread has been very interesting to say the least if we are considering how the western powers choose to prop up , tear down , send money to , send tech/ arms to and try to claim backing for democracy and freedom from tyranny. Quiet interesting indeed . I enjoy it .

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Russia would get curb stomped by NATO forces in a conventional war and it wouldn't even be close. Thier best ally agaisnt the west would be China who, despite common belief wouldn't risk war with NATO.

Can you imagine Xi having to look at his party and have to explain how China's trillions of owed debt just got wiped clean by NATO members?

This entire post is pure nonsense. If NATO has that overwhelming advantage, then why do they need the US in the mix? Let the remaining NATO nations do the heavy lifting without us.

And a China doesn't need our owed debt.

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

We gave arms to Iran in the 1980s. Did that mean they were our allies?

Not to mention all of the milktant groups in the middle east that the government armed and ultimately ended up fighting.

 

[DuckInAPen]

Democrats and Republicans line up to invoke their war powers on Ukraine - Responsible Statecraft

It's heartening to me that at least some of our congressmen are intent to reclaim their branch's prerogative against the usurpation of the executive.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I don't see a war between Russia and NATO forces staying conventional for very long, I'm afraid. Too much pressure to use 'em or lose 'em.

Yeah, pressure from the lunatics in Washington, London and Brussels.