War in Ukraine

#3,926
#3,926
Rasputin_Vol said:
Why can't that comparison be made?
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The KGB carried out some pretty horrific acts on the Russian/foreign people in the name of the Soviet government. Is the CIA blameless? Absolutely not, but it’s comparing apples to hammers. They nearly destroyed Eastern Europe with their meddling at Chernobyl, several ex KGB officers have been convicted of genocide/crimes against humanity, no one knows how many Afghans were killed under Soviet occupation, as well as the massacre in Hungary.
 
#3,928
#3,928
allvol123 said:
Actually arms would increase the possibility of dragging the war out which is a less desired route for Russia.

If Russia does this my desire is they pay immensely for murdering these people.
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Unlikely. Russia has invested for two-plus decades in waging war against the conventional weapons they would face. The US would be sending Ukraine low-end, decades old equipment that the Russians are explicitly invested in countering. Russia also has experience, now, in destabilizing OR aligning local militias along with themselves in Ukraine. I'm not going to disagree with you on Russia being a bully. But they're a bully we can't beat with "arms". This isn't the military, or the armament, of the Cold War that the US has. And the insurgencies we have recently tried to stand up have performed poorly at best around the world.
 
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#3,930
#3,930
ButchPlz said:
These are simple yes/no questions, @allvol123:

1. Do you think Ukrainian resources are valuable?
2. Do you think Ukrainian freedom is valuable?
3. Do you think a Russian invasion is imminent?
4. Do you think sending American arms to Ukraine will stifle a Russian invasion, and prevent Russian access to Ukrainian resources and oppression of Ukrainian freedom?
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Yes.
Yes. You don’t value freedom?
Yes.
It gives them a better chance.
 
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#3,931
#3,931
allvol123 said:
You want Russia and China to be able to do as they please. How will that line up long term. Get ready Hong Kong.
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Now I will call you an absolute imbecile. I've explicitly stated that I view China as the greatest threat to America in the world, and that we would be better served aligning with the nearest regional power with peer military status to the Chinese (as in, Russia).

This has reached pointless status. You literally don't know what you're talking about.
 
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#3,932
#3,932
ButchPlz said:
Unlikely. Russia has invested for two-plus decades in waging war against the conventional weapons they would face. The US would be sending Ukraine low-end, decades old equipment that the Russians are explicitly invested in countering. Russia also has experience, now, in destabilizing OR aligning local militias along with themselves in Ukraine. I'm not going to disagree with you on Russia being a bully. But they're a bully we can't beat with "arms". This isn't the military, or the armament, of the Cold War that the US has. And the insurgencies we have recently tried to stand up have performed poorly at best around the world.
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So what is the negative to arm supplying? Don’t get the money route, that is a non issue.
 
#3,935
#3,935
ButchPlz said:
I'm not saying applaud it. I'm saying tell the Europeans to handle the issue. If they won't, let it be a lesson to them. The fall of Ukraine will have limited impact on the United States. Sending weapons to them, especially when the Russians are way more geared up for a conventional combat situation/invasion and their stuff counters ours very well, is a waste of money.

You're advocating throwing money down the toilet for a government many of you have said is corrupt so we can show Russia we mean business. It's idiotic.
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We are between a rock and a hard place with no easy solutions.
 
#3,936
#3,936
ButchPlz said:
To my mind, there's only one solution that can apply in that case, and I don't think he has the guts to come out and say it- in fact, he's said that he's against said solution.
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This goes back to the question that they are also too scared to answer. What would a strong president be doing differently than Biden right now?
 
#3,937
#3,937
BreatheUT said:
We are between a rock and a hard place with no easy solutions.
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Exactly.

The best bet is to let Europeans step up to the plate. It seems that through sheer confusion (not deliberate effort) that the US is letting that happen with France and Germany leading the way. Excellent!

This way, Europe can show us they're serious about being military allies. We keep totally out of a European conflict and, ideally, can avoid completely destroying any chance we have of working with Russia. And, if we can't work with the Russians, at least we don't have two enemies solidified wholeheartedly against us over that way, and can focus our limited military resources on the threat that is present both at home and abroad- the Chinese.
 
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#3,939
#3,939
allvol123 said:
Is a stronger Russia better for the US?

@ButchPlz
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No.

But I'm not convinced invading Ukraine makes them "stronger" in any sense that is a threat to us. They're already stronger than we are in conventional warfare capability. What other "strength" do they gain from Ukraine? Can you even answer that? Resources are a non-starter as neither Russia nor Ukraine make a big dent in our total energy imports, for example.

I also realize that there is infinite nuance in the question, as I much prefer the lesser evil of a "stronger" (and I use the quotes there for a reason) Russia as compared to a stronger China further aligned with Russia. We can't deal with both.
 
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#3,940
#3,940
ButchPlz said:
No.

But I'm not convinced invading Ukraine makes them "stronger" in any sense that is a threat to us. They're already stronger than we are in conventional warfare capability. What other "strength" do they gain from Ukraine? Can you even answer that? Resources are a non-starter as neither Russia nor Ukraine make a big dent in our total energy imports, for example.

I also realize that there is infinite nuance in the question, as I much prefer the lesser evil of a stronger Russia as compared to a stronger China further aligned with Russia. We can't deal with both.
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Resources aren’t a non starter. They aren’t for us. It is to continually gain ground in influencing your dealings with every other nation in the world. How do you create alliances? They arent created because two country’s “like” each other. They are created on what I can do for you. Russia and China will continue this creep and you will see current allies chipped away at in terms of arrangements made with the US.
 
#3,941
#3,941
allvol123 said:
Resources aren’t a non starter. They aren’t for us. It is to continually gain ground in influencing your dealings with every other nation in the world. How do you create alliances? They arent created because two country’s “like” each other. They are created on what I can do for you. Russia and China will continue this creep and you will see current allies chipped away at in terms of arrangements made with the US.
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Russia invading Ukraine will chip away at American alliances how? By them controlling European access to resources? That's easily solved if Europe returns to the energy production they quickly abandoned- and America and American allies have better technology and better raw resources for that energy production than anyone else in the world. And the US can do a lot more for Russia than China can- if people like you stop acting like they're the USSR.

And, once again, sending arms to Ukraine doesn't prevent Russian creep. It doesn't strengthen American alliances. It doesn't stop the invasion, and it probably doesn't even slow it down in any noticeable way. What action does? If your goal is to prevent Russian creep, stand up and advocate for the single solution that likely puts the foot down.
 
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#3,942
#3,942
landscapingvol said:
The KGB carried out some pretty horrific acts on the Russian/foreign people in the name of the Soviet government. Is the CIA blameless? Absolutely not, but it’s comparing apples to hammers. They nearly destroyed Eastern Europe with their meddling at Chernobyl, several ex KGB officers have been convicted of genocide/crimes against humanity, no one knows how many Afghans were killed under Soviet occupation, as well as the massacre in Hungary.
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1. CIA coup that over threw Mossedegh and installed the Shah of Iran. How many people did The Shah terrorize and torture over his quarter century reign?
2. CIA coup that over threw Arbenz and installed a military dictator in Guatemala. How many people did these military rulers terrorize and torture over their decades long reign?
3. CIA coup that over threw Allende and installed Pinochete in Chile. How many people did Pinochet terrorize and torture over his reign?

Do you start to see the pattern here? The CIA can throw the rock and hide their hands. They can try to distance themselves from these atrocities that ended up the the torture and subjugation of millions. They are no different than the KGB. Yet, we had a former CIA director as president.
 
#3,944
#3,944
Rasputin_Vol said:
1. CIA coup that over threw Mossedegh and installed the Shah of Iran. How many people did The Shah terrorize and torture over his quarter century reign?
2. CIA coup that over threw Arbenz and installed a military dictator in Guatemala. How many people did these military rulers terrorize and torture over their decades long reign?
3. CIA coup that over threw Allende and installed Pinochete in Chile. How many people did Pinochet terrorize and torture over his reign?

Do you start to see the pattern here? The CIA can throw the rock and hide their hands. They can try to distance themselves from these atrocities that ended up the the torture and subjugation of millions. They are no different than the KGB. Yet, we had a former CIA director as president.
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This is not to mention the domestic activities the CIA has undertaken that look very similar to KGB experiments.
 
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#3,946
#3,946
ButchPlz said:
Russia invading Ukraine will chip away at American alliances how? By them controlling European access to resources? That's easily solved if Europe returns to the energy production they quickly abandoned- and America and American allies have better technology and better raw resources for that energy production than anyone else in the world. And the US can do a lot more for Russia than China can- if people like you stop acting like they're the USSR.

And, once again, sending arms to Ukraine doesn't prevent Russian creep. It doesn't strengthen American alliances. It doesn't stop the invasion, and it probably doesn't even slow it down in any noticeable way. What action does? If your goal is to prevent Russian creep, stand up and advocate for the single solution that likely puts the foot down.
Click to expand...

So it is solved if Europe makes the right decision? And what do you put those odds at?

If Ukrainians are willing to fight then it makes Russia pay a bigger price and slows them down. Perhaps emboldens dissent in the motherland.
 
#3,947
#3,947
allvol123 said:
So it is solved if Europe makes the right decision? And what do you put those odds at?

If Ukrainians are willing to fight then it makes Russia pay a bigger price and slows them down. Perhaps emboldens dissent in the motherland.
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I am not continuing until you nut up and tell me that the US sending arms to Ukraine is going to be more effective at achieving your very own stated goals (of preserving Ukrainian resources and freedom) compared to other solutions.
 
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#3,949
#3,949
Russia invades tomorrow. Obvious reasons:

(1) Olympics over. Puty respected the ancient Olympic "truce". Still Nobel Peace Prize contender.
(2) It's a Monday. Mondays suck. Everywhere. Even moreso in Ukraine tomorrow.
(3) Binken said he'd met with Lazarov on Thursday *if* they don't invade prior to then.
(4) Lazarov has severe halitosis, so Blinken didn't want to meet him in the first place.
(5) Puty has a bareback (him not the horse) horseback ride scheduled tomorrow. Photo opp.
(6) Chicken Little Biden said a bazillion times Puty would do it.
(7) Ukraine spelled backwards is Eniarku which of course is the Yiddish word for tomorrow.
(8) Russian troops suffering callous fingers from literally playing weeks of non-stop Tetris.
(9) Kyiv clothing stores just received new shipments of coveted 501 button-fly Levis.
(10) Ukrainian women. Duhhh.
 
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