Workers are applying for jobs left and right, but hearing nothing back

[Rasputin_Vol]

Not from me he didn’t. I only have issues with 2 specific statements. You guys keep trying to claim I‘m arguing points that I am not arguing.

No, we're saying that you all took the phrase "the person working in shipping is just as valuable to the organization as anyone else" and you guys jumped with both feet on that to mean that @DonjoVol was saying the shipping guy or the janitor should be paid the same as anyone else.

That isn't the point he was making.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Now, my other argument against higher starting wages is, lets say entry level for a job is $8 an hour. A company decides they need to start paying new employees $12 to attract a better pool of candidates. Now, what do you do with your employees that started 2-3 years ago and are making less than that? You bump up their pay to $12? You bump up their pay to whatever the margin is already between the pay scale of the 2 jobs? What if an employee comes to you and asks, instead of the pay per dollar bump, give me the same salary bump in percentage as you did to that other job, in the long run that could cost a lot more to the company. So for all those with the just pay more argument, what is your solution to not cause dissension with your other longer term employees?

It is a bad situation to be in. No one is denying that. It sucks but this is the situation we are in right now. Govt intervention was the cause of this. But what do companies do when the govt intervenes and causes taxes, materials, or energy to go higher?

 

[Vol423]

No, we're saying that you all took the phrase "the person working in shipping is just as valuable to the organization as anyone else" and you guys jumped with both feet on that to mean that @DonjoVol was saying the shipping guy or the janitor should be paid the same as anyone else.

That isn't the point he was making.

No. We didn’t. You did - incorrectly - over and over again. Value = Total compensation. He admits that all employees shouldn’t be paid equally, so he admits that all employees aren’t equally valued by companies, except of course that neither of you will admit that cold, hard fact.

This is not a difficult concept, but you two can’t seem to grasp it. If DonjoVol were to actually say that all employees should receive identical compensation packages in a theoretical company, then he could argue that this theoretical company equally values all employees. Short of creating such a fantasyland example, both of you are just flat out, 100% wrong. You can’t have different total compensation for employees within a company and claim that said company equally values all employees.

I’m officially done arguing one of the most obvious economic concepts in the world.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

No. We didn’t. Value = Total compensation. He admits that all employees shouldn’t be paid equally, so he admits that all employees aren’t equally valued by companies, except of course that neither of you will admit that cold, hard fact.

Value means much more than just that. Again, in the context of the conversation, he was not talking about salary and compensation.

A janitor that keeps a place clean adds value to a company that deals with a lot of customer interaction. A shipping employee that manages to get materials moved in and out quickly adds value. Salary and compensation were not even part of what he was talking about, however.

You all got hung up on "value" and spun it into a different context than what he was saying.

 

[utvolpj]

Value means much more than just that. Again, in the context of the conversation, he was not talking about salary and compensation.

A janitor that keeps a place clean adds value to a company that deals with a lot of customer interaction. A shipping employee that manages to get materials moved in and out quickly adds value. Salary and compensation were not even part of what he was talking about, however.

You all got hung up on "value" and spun it into a different context than what he was saying.

Let's add a qualifier that this is a shipping clerk who can count. The vast majority do not really meet that level and their value is seriously limited.

 

[Vol423]

Value means much more than just that. Again, in the context of the conversation, he was not talking about salary and compensation.

A janitor that keeps a place clean adds value to a company that deals with a lot of customer interaction. A shipping employee that manages to get materials moved in and out quickly adds value. Salary and compensation were not even part of what he was talking about, however.

You all got hung up on "value" and spun it into a different context than what he was saying.

At this point, I think you are just trying to continue screwing with me. If not, you are officially beyond help. If you took any ECON classes in college, you should request a refund for the money you wasted.

 

[DonjoVol]

No. We didn’t. You did - incorrectly - over and over again. Value = Total compensation. He admits that all employees shouldn’t be paid equally, so he admits that all employees aren’t equally valued by companies, except of course that neither of you will admit that cold, hard fact.

This is not a difficult concept, but you two can’t seem to grasp it. If DonjoVol were to actually say that all employees should receive identical compensation packages in a theoretical company, then he could argue that this theoretical company equally values all employees. Short of creating such a fantasyland example, both of you are just flat out, 100% wrong. You can’t have different total compensation for employees within a company and claim that said company equally values all employees.

I’m officially done arguing one of the most obvious economic concepts in the world.

Perhaps you don't value and appreciate people in your company who make less money than you? If that is the case then why not share those exact sentiments with them next week when you arrive at work.

You might value the accountant more than the shipping clerk. You also fail to see another point. Without reliable shipping clerks that accountant wouldn't have a job in the first place.

Same with an accountant who might work for a large restaurant franchise. Without a reliable workforce inside each restaurant the accountant wouldn't have a job in the first place. And if restaurants started closing then those accountants at the corporate level start losing their jobs as well.

Not sure what you do for a living. But I sense that maybe you have an actual disdain for working people who are the backbone for many companies. If so, just admit it. Because honestly that is how it comes across.

 

[DonjoVol]

Ive skimmed through this thread.
My 2 cents on what the poster said is, Salaries differ due to the skill level of said job. A dishwasher has the lowest pay because their job takes the least amount of skill to perform. They also, in my experience have the fewest and least stressful amount of tasks to perform. They are also being paid for the knowledge needed to perform their task. A supervisor for ex needs much more experience, knowledge and skill to perform their daily tasks. Could a supervisor fill in as a dishwasher sure? Could a dishwasher fill in as a supervisor, most likely not.

Now, my other argument against higher starting wages is, lets say entry level for a job is $8 an hour. A company decides they need to start paying new employees $12 to attract a better pool of candidates. Now, what do you do with your employees that started 2-3 years ago and are making less than that? You bump up their pay to $12? You bump up their pay to whatever the margin is already between the pay scale of the 2 jobs? What if an employee comes to you and asks, instead of the pay per dollar bump, give me the same salary bump in percentage as you did to that other job, in the long run that could cost a lot more to the company. So for all those with the just pay more argument, what is your solution to not cause dissension with your other longer term employees?

Lastly, like some have said the bigger problem is an over inflated market bottom due to government interference. People are either wanting certainn benefits work from home or altered scheduled, or much more money than their skill level is actually worth based on their experience and knowledge of the job, company etc required to perform said task.

I would disagree that the dishwasher has the least stressful job in the restaurant. I mean the dishwasher is still cleaning up messes that customers have left to be cleaned. And if it's a full service restaurant then you must have clean dishes in order to operate efficiently throughout the day. So the dishwasher is just as important as that server who is waiting on you and the cook who prepared your food.

As I mentioned in another post. As soon as I put in my two weeks notice recently as a restaurant manager I was immediately offered a raise to stay. They did this to other managers as well who had put in their notices. If company wants people to stay then maybe start treating them well while they are working there. And if you value your employees, especially the ones who are good at their job, then you should do everything in your power to try to retain them.

I can also tell you that during the first year of the pandemic I dealt with more rudeness and disrespect from customers at any point in my life. And this was with us working with half the staff we had before. Many days there were just 3 of us working the entire day inside the restaurant. We were doing this while sales were up 25% at our location alone. Which is a huge increase in sales.

Many companies are having to pay more right now because many people also have quit in the past year and moved on to other careers. Mainly because they got tired of dealing with the BS while being underpaid. And they are having to offer higher pay in hopes of staffing their businesses and companies. I even saw where a manufacturing plant in this area is now starting at $20 an hour instead of the $14 an hour they were previously offering as starting pay the last few years.

 

[mr.checkerboards]

I would disagree that the dishwasher has the least stressful job in the restaurant. I mean the dishwasher is still cleaning up messes that customers have left to be cleaned. And if it's a full service restaurant then you must have clean dishes in order to operate efficiently throughout the day. So the dishwasher is just as important as that server who is waiting on you and the cook who prepared your food.

As I mentioned in another post. As soon as I put in my two weeks notice recently as a restaurant manager I was immediately offered a raise to stay. They did this to other managers as well who had put in their notices. If company wants people to stay then maybe start treating them well while they are working there. And if you value your employees, especially the ones who are good at their job, then you should do everything in your power to try to retain them.

I can also tell you that during the first year of the pandemic I dealt with more rudeness and disrespect from customers at any point in my life. And this was with us working with half the staff we had before. Many days there were just 3 of us working the entire day inside the restaurant. We were doing this while sales were up 25% at our location alone. Which is a huge increase in sales.

Many companies are having to pay more right now because many people also have quit in the past year and moved on to other careers. Mainly because they got tired of dealing with the BS while being underpaid. And they are having to offer higher pay in hopes of staffing their businesses and companies. I even saw where a manufacturing plant in this area is now starting at $20 an hour instead of the $14 an hour they were previously offering as starting pay the last few years.

LMAO im dead at the bolded part. Thats just not even close to true.

And all this extra pay is coming from where you think? Either one of two things is happening companies are offering more money for less hours, or theyre just passing on the costs to their customers in raising prices.
And raising starting pay fine whatever, but what do you do with those who have been there for a few years, give them the same raise? Tell them tough ****? Make their pay equal with the newbie who they now have to train, so youre basically telling them their experience and skills dont matter. Paying more at the bottom de incentivizes people to actually want to work hard and move up, because why, why deal with the headache and stress?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

LMAO im dead at the bolded part. Thats just not even close to true.

And all this extra pay is coming from where you think? Either one of two things is happening companies are offering more money for less hours, or theyre just passing on the costs to their customers in raising prices.
And raising starting pay fine whatever, but what do you do with those who have been there for a few years, give them the same raise? Tell them tough ****? Make their pay equal with the newbie who they now have to train, so youre basically telling them their experience and skills dont matter. Paying more at the bottom de incentivizes people to actually want to work hard and move up, because why, why deal with the headache and stress?

How long can you run a restaurant without a "full time" dishwasher? I put "full time" in quotes because you can cycle in cooks or servers to do that job every now and then to do the job, but how long do you think you can do that?

 

[NorthDallas40]

How long can you run a restaurant without a "full time" dishwasher? I put "full time" in quotes because you can cycle in cooks or servers to do that job every now and then to do the job, but how long do you think you can do that?

I honestly think you guys are just using the wrong term. I think you should really be saying respect not value. There’s no reason to treat any employee disrespectful just because they are lower on the pay scale and company performance impact.

 

[DonjoVol]

LMAO im dead at the bolded part. Thats just not even close to true.

And all this extra pay is coming from where you think? Either one of two things is happening companies are offering more money for less hours, or theyre just passing on the costs to their customers in raising prices.
And raising starting pay fine whatever, but what do you do with those who have been there for a few years, give them the same raise? Tell them tough ****? Make their pay equal with the newbie who they now have to train, so youre basically telling them their experience and skills dont matter. Paying more at the bottom de incentivizes people to actually want to work hard and move up, because why, why deal with the headache and stress?

If someone has already been there a few years and is a good employee who does a good job then why not take care of that person while he's already there. That's part of the point I've been trying to make.

And no I don't think paying people more at the bottom deincentivizes people in any way. Plus you can't move everyone up and some people honestly have no desire to move up. So find the ones who are good employees and who want to stay and take care of them while they are already there.

 

[DonjoVol]

I honestly think you guys are just using the wrong term. I think you should really be saying respect not value. There’s no reason to treat any employee disrespectful just because they are lower on the pay scale and company performance impact.

See that's part of the problem right there. Maybe people not stop seeing them as low on the company performance impact.

Do you really want to try and argue that an accountant who works at the corporate level at a McDonald's franchise is more important than shift manager working inside the restaurant whose job is to make sure the restaurant is actually running while he/she is there?

And maybe we can stop referring to people as low level and low skilled. It's a rather demeaning and insulting term to be quite honest. Let's try to value and respect people for what they are actually doing.

 

[NorthDallas40]

See that's part of the problem right there. Maybe people not stop seeing them as low on the company performance impact.

Do you really want to try and argue that an accountant who works at the corporate level at a McDonald's franchise is more important than shift manager working inside the restaurant whose job is to make sure the restaurant is actually running while he/she is there?

And maybe we can stop referring to people as low level and low skilled. It's a rather demeaning and insulting term to be quite honest. Let's try to value and respect people for what they are actually doing.

That’s respect not value. They are low on the company performance impact as most all unskilled labor can be replaced by nearly any one else in the company. I didn’t say anyone they could hire, I said any other employee. Thus within the pool of company employees they have less value. That’s it.

That is still no reason to disrespect them and treat them bad however.

Oh and if you have no specialized skills then you are unskilled or low skilled. That’s just a factual description but doesn’t need to be considered a pejorative

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I honestly think you guys are just using the wrong term. I think you should really be saying respect not value. There’s no reason to treat any employee disrespectful just because they are lower on the pay scale and company performance impact.

There was nothing wrong with the original comment where he said "value". He was simply trying to express the importance of each employee to a company. It wasn't an incorrect use of the word in the context used. They took "value" to mean "salary"...

I understand that communication is a two way street, but in this instance, the one transmitting the idea was not at fault. Those people that received the info and put their own interpretation and spin in it ran it somewhere else. Anyone should have been able to read what @DonjoVol was saying and should have understood perfectly what he was saying. Some of these guys just got triggered at the idea of paying low skill workers a little bit more.

 

[NorthDallas40]

There was nothing wrong with the original comment where he said "value". He was simply trying to express the importance of each employee to a company. It wasn't an incorrect use of the word in the context used. They took "value" to mean "salary"...

I understand that communication is a two way street, but in this instance, the one transmitting the idea was not at fault. Those people that received the info and put their own interpretation and spin in it ran it somewhere else. Anyone should have been able to read what @DonjoVol was saying and should have understood perfectly what he was saying. Some of these guys just got triggered at the idea of paying low skill workers a little bit more.

Yes there is. It’s imprecise. I agree with the point he’s trying to make (all employees have value). However his imprecise usage of terminology is why this is dragging on.

“we value your contribution” is a good and respectful statement for a company to make to their unskilled employees but the unspoken and unneeded continuation is “… but we don’t value you as much as the senior engineer that makes six times as much as you do.” Why add that last part even though it’s correct? It’s just disrespectful

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I agree. It takes a one minute call to cancel.
However, the person working in shipping is just as valuable to the organization as anyone else is. If the pay is less than 30K a year based on a 40 hour work week in 2021 then that's a problem. We are approaching 2022. Pay should be respectable and should allow someone to make a decent living. Well Pay raises and performance bonuses should be in line with the rest of the company.

I think that's more than fair.

There is nothing wrong with what was said here nor was there an incorrect use of the word "valuable". These guys got triggered and read this as saying that the shipping guy should be "compensated" as much as everyone else. That is not what is being said here.

Every employee does a job that keeps the company running efficiently.

 

[DonjoVol]

Yes there is. It’s imprecise. I agree with the point he’s trying to make (all employees have value). However his imprecise usage of terminology is why this is dragging on.

“we value your contribution” is a good and respectful statement for a company to make to their unskilled employees but the unspoken and unneeded continuation is “… but we don’t value you as much as the senior engineer that makes six times as much as you do.” Why add that last part even though it’s correct? It’s just disrespectful

How about we stop referring to some employees as "unskilled "? That's a rather insulting term. Maybe keep that in mind next time you are out eating a meal at a restaurant that was not prepared by you.

Plus, many of these people might actually enjoy what their doing or maybe even working there part time to support their family. Some might even be working on af degree in their spare time as well. You never know what someone's situation is.

Plus as a conservative I feel it's important to place equal value and respect on what people are doing for work. And we start paying people that some consider at the bottom a little more. Those right there should be basic conservative values.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Yes there is. It’s imprecise. I agree with the point he’s trying to make (all employees have value). However his imprecise usage of terminology is why this is dragging on.

“we value your contribution” is a good and respectful statement for a company to make to their unskilled employees but the unspoken and unneeded continuation is “… but we don’t value you as much as the senior engineer that makes six times as much as you do.” Why add that last part even though it’s correct? It’s just disrespectful

In a message board or chat, he was just expressing a general idea... an idea that was built on over several posts he made leading up to that. It was an off the cuff response that should not have required the level of precision that you are talking about in an informal setting like this.

 

[NorthDallas40]

How about we stop referring to some employees as "unskilled "? That's a rather insulting term. Maybe keep that in mind next time you are out eating a meal at a restaurant that was not prepared by you.

Plus, many of these people might actually enjoy what their doing or maybe even working there part time to support their family. Some might even be working on af degree in their spare time as well. You never know what someone's situation is.

Plus as a conservative I feel it's important to place equal value and respect on what people are doing for work. And we start paying people that some consider at the bottom a little more. Those right there should be basic conservative values.

Nope. It’s an accurate description of the skills required to do the jobs we are referring to. I refuse to call a janitor a sanitation engineer also.

I hope they do enjoy their job. Why would we want anyone to be miserable in their job? That’s just more disrespect.

 

[NorthDallas40]

In a message board or chat, he was just expressing a general idea... an idea that was built on over several posts he made leading up to that. It was an of the cuff response that should not have required the level of precision that you are talking about in an informal setting like this.

Imprecision here always results in multi page back and forths and you know it. Nobody takes issue with the point that all employees have value. But everyone is so dug into their choice of words we’re going to have three more pages on a basic “ toe-may-to toe-mah-toe” argument. It’s what we do. SSDD

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Plus as a conservative I feel it's important to place equal value and respect on what people are doing for work. And we start paying people that some consider at the bottom a little more. Those right there should be basic conservative values.

These "conservatives" may as well never let the name Adam Smith be uttered from their lips... nor should they complain about the current supply chain issues at ports, or complain when a low paid punter or long snapper messes up in a game, or when the $20 lug nuts on their truck fail... because none of those things are "valuable" in their minds.

 

[NorthDallas40]

These "conservatives" may as well never let the name Adam Smith be uttered from their lips... nor should they complain about the current supply chain issues at ports, or complain when a low paid punter or long snapper messes up in a game, or when the $20 lug nuts on their truck fail... because none of those things are "valuable" in their minds.

An absolute complete misrepresentation of what is being said and I’ve stated that clearly in the posts you’ve replied to. Do better with that broad brush.

 

[Vol423]

How about we stop referring to some employees as "unskilled "? That's a rather insulting term. Maybe keep that in mind next time you are out eating a meal at a restaurant that was not prepared by you.

Plus, many of these people might actually enjoy what their doing or maybe even working there part time to support their family. Some might even be working on af degree in their spare time as well. You never know what someone's situation is.

Plus as a conservative I feel it's important to place equal value and respect on what people are doing for work. And we start paying people that some consider at the bottom a little more. Those right there should be basic conservative values.

It's hilarious to hear stuff like this from you and Rasputin_Vol, while you call those of us that understand the basic economic truth that all employees are not equally valued by companies "triggered". Will someone please come bubble-wrap DonjoVol, give him a support animal, and read him lullabies all day so he doesn't hear someone say something factual that might hurt his delicate feelings?

The younger generations in this country today are fragile creatures that believe that being politically correct and bankrupting our country's future in the name of climate change are the most important challenges our country faces. We, as a nation, are going to be absolutely devoured by the Chinese over the next 40-50 years because we have allowed the liberal left to brainwash our kids.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Yes there is. It’s imprecise. I agree with the point he’s trying to make (all employees have value). However his imprecise usage of terminology is why this is dragging on.

“we value your contribution” is a good and respectful statement for a company to make to their unskilled employees but the unspoken and unneeded continuation is “… but we don’t value you as much as the senior engineer that makes six times as much as you do.” Why add that last part even though it’s correct? It’s just disrespectful

Hey @Rasputin_Vol and @DonjoVol i want to correct something. In the post above on the bolded I used imprecise terminology. I should have said “…is a correct and respectful statement…” thus I want to clarify myself.

See how that works?