Could be the biggest underachieving team in UT history

#102
#102
jeff1vol said:
You are correct. My mistake. 22 wins per year is certainly better. But I still contend he's not the best we could do.
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Barnes has a higher per season win rate than Rick Pitino and John Chaney. Same as John Thompson. You can count on one hand the number of elite coaches that average more per season. Do you really think we could land someone better? Don't take those odds to Vegas my friend.
 
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#103
#103
jeff1vol said:
You are correct. My mistake. 22 wins per year is certainly better. But I still contend he's not the best we could do.
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TN could never push out Barnes and improve on him, Schwartz, Oliver, English, and the recruits that they are now signing. The assistants wouldn’t be close to that quality and adding a 4-star now and then would be the best case. The guys now on the bench that the chronic nega-Vols want to clear off of the roster would be starting.
 
#104
#104
We have an abundance of talent at the 2,3, and 4 positions. We have a shortage of talent at the 1 and 5 positions. Teams with talent at the 1 and 5 positions have been able to take advantage of those positions. If we are not shooting the three ball well, we have little chance of beating other teams who, frankly, have better shooters from the three. We do not have a player at the 5 position who can control the lane, and get offensive and defensive rebounds. Our passes on the perimeter are sloppy and we have turnovers trying to get the ball inside. A really good P G would have been a big difference this year. Fortunately, we have one of those coming next year. We badly need a very good player at the 5 position.
 
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#105
#105
VOLINVONORE said:
We have an abundance of talent at the 2,3, and 4 positions. We have a shortage of talent at the 1 and 5 positions. Teams with talent at the 1 and 5 positions have been able to take advantage of those positions. If we are not shooting the three ball well, we have little chance of beating other teams who, frankly, have better shooters from the three. We do not have a player at the 5 position who can control the lane, and get offensive and defensive rebounds. Our passes on the perimeter are sloppy and we have turnovers trying to get the ball inside. A really good P G would have been a big difference this year. Fortunately, we have one of those coming next year. We badly need a very good player at the 5 position.
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I've always said point guards and centers win basketball games. We are lacking in both.
 
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#106
#106
Thunder Good-Oil said:
TN could never push out Barnes and improve on him, Schwartz, Oliver, English, and the recruits that they are now signing. The assistants wouldn’t be close to that quality and adding a 4-star now and then would be the best case. The guys now on the bench that the chronic nega-Vols want to clear off of the roster would be starting.
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The idea that our programs success down the road is completely dependent on Barnes is as negative a mind set as you can get. We could definitely do worse but I personally believe that we will continue to be successful long after he retires. Will we win every year? No, but we don't do that now.
 
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#107
#107
jeff1vol said:
Its easy. He's a good coach. Not a great coach. What's so hard to comprehend. We could do worse, but we could also do much better, IMO. Again... our bball program is much more appealing than our fball team right now. BTW... its very hard to find stats for coaches in certain months. I tried with K, Dean Smith, Knight... it's a task to find winning % for certain months. Help yourself and report back what you find. I think you'll be surprised.
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I’m not doing your legwork for you to support your theory. I just don’t care enough. It just feels like your seemingly newfound revelation is more like pointing out an obvious trend for almost any high-major coach and trying to pin it solely on Barnes as some sort of damning trend. Doesn’t it seem obvious that our record would be better in December while playing Tennessee Tech, USC-Upstate, Appalachian State, and St. Joseph, mostly all at home or neutral sites than it is in February when we are playing exclusively SEC-level talent in the forms of Kentucky, LSU, Kentucky, and Auburn, half of which are on the road?

I want to say that trend seems obvious because it is, but again, you tried to twice convince us all that Rick Barnes was a 44 year head coaching veteran, so maybe the obvious isn’t so obvious to everyone.

Maybe give us a list of attainable head coaches who are obvious upgrades since Barnes isn’t great and we can “do much better”. No up and comers, no assistants...provide me a list of proven products that would leave their current situations to come to Tennessee and be instant upgrades over Barnes.
 
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#108
#108
ColinS said:
The idea that our programs success down the road is completely dependent on Barnes is as negative a mind set as you can get. We could definitely do worse but I personally believe that we will continue to be successful long after he retires. Will we win every year? No, but we don't do that now.
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Doing anything other than allowing Barnes to RETIRE on his terms would send TN back to the level that they were at in the 1990s. Wade Houston was supposed to be the can’t miss upgrade over Devoe after being Crum’s star recruiter and top assistant on a national champion. Kevin O’Neill was supposed to elevate TN to unprecedented heights after taking Marquette to the Sweet 16. Buzz Peterson was going to use his connections with Michael Jordan to fill up the roster with future NBA all stars. Those 3 up and comers never made it into the NCAAT in their 12 years at TN.
 
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#109
#109
ColinS said:
I've always said point guards and centers win basketball games. We are lacking in both.
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Elite centers, which are few and far between. I agree an elite center makes a huge difference for teams that have one. Point guard is a different story. PGs don’t have to be elite and they are more readily available and a lot of times overlooked. You can find really good PGs at many mid-major schools who could start or heavily contribute to a lot of high-major schools.

As you said, we don’t have either. We could get by with a Jordan Bone and Kyle Alexander, and this team is an entirely different version of itself. Bone isn’t elite and Alexander certainly isn’t, but they are both serious upgrades over what we are currently fielding at those positions.
 
#110
#110
cncchris33 said:
Elite centers, which are few and far between. I agree an elite center makes a huge difference for teams that have one. Point guard is a different story. PGs don’t have to be elite and they are more readily available and a lot of times overlooked. You can find really good PGs at many mid-major schools who could start or heavily contribute to a lot of high-major schools.

As you said, we don’t have either. We could get by with a Jordan Bone and Kyle Alexander, and this team is an entirely different version of itself. Bone isn’t elite and Alexander certainly isn’t, but they are both serious upgrades over what we are currently fielding at those positions.
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On Vawl Calls last night Barnes was pushing for Springer to embrace being the PG. He said that is going to be his position in the NBA and he needs to own it right now.
 
#112
#112
Thunder Good-Oil said:
On Vawl Calls last night Barnes was pushing for Springer to embrace being the PG. He said that is going to be his position in the NBA and he needs to own it right now.
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Hmmm...some of us have been championing that idea for the better part of the past year. Vescovi is not a PG in a league as athletic as the SEC, especially when he is still very much one-handed, and Springer is equally as creative as a passer, can get to the lane, and can finish in the lane, as well. He isn’t infallible, but him playing at PG moves SV off the ball and between he and Bailey, should provide us a shooter on the wing at all times.
 
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#113
#113
cncchris33 said:
Hmmm...some of us have been championing that idea for the better part of the past year. Vescovi is not a PG in a league as athletic as the SEC, especially when he is still very much one-handed, and Springer is equally as creative as a passer, can get to the lane, and can finish in the lane, as well. He isn’t infallible, but him playing at PG moves SV off the ball and between he and Bailey, should provide us a shooter on the wing at all times.
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Springer played some PG in high school if I’m not mistaken.
 
#115
#115
ursaminotaur said:
Barnes has a higher per season win rate than Rick Pitino and John Chaney. Same as John Thompson. You can count on one hand the number of elite coaches that average more per season. Do you really think we could land someone better? Don't take those odds to Vegas my friend.
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What has he done here in SEVEN years? .5 a title. Is that good enough? If he's such a GREAT coach, shouldn't we expect more? Ya'll cant have it both ways. Either he's great and underperforming or simply a good coach who is doing what average coaches do. Which is it?
 
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#116
#116
jeff1vol said:
What has he done here in SEVEN years? .5 a title. Is that good enough? If he's such a GREAT coach, shouldn't we expect more? Ya'll cant have it both ways. Either he's great and underperforming or simply a good coach who is doing what average coaches do. Which is it?
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I’ll have to wait until the conclusion of the 2021-22 season to answer that one, I guess.

Is the math really that hard?
 
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#117
#117
cncchris33 said:
I’m not doing your legwork for you to support your theory. I just don’t care enough. It just feels like your seemingly newfound revelation is more like pointing out an obvious trend for almost any high-major coach and trying to pin it solely on Barnes as some sort of damning trend. Doesn’t it seem obvious that our record would be better in December while playing Tennessee Tech, USC-Upstate, Appalachian State, and St. Joseph, mostly all at home or neutral sites than it is in February when we are playing exclusively SEC-level talent in the forms of Kentucky, LSU, Kentucky, and Auburn, half of which are on the road?

I want to say that trend seems obvious because it is, but again, you tried to twice convince us all that Rick Barnes was a 44 year head coaching veteran, so maybe the obvious isn’t so obvious to everyone.

Maybe give us a list of attainable head coaches who are obvious upgrades since Barnes isn’t great and we can “do much better”. No up and comers, no assistants...provide me a list of proven products that would leave their current situations to come to Tennessee and be instant upgrades over Barnes.
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If you really think that Barnes is the "be all, end all" for UT bball... great. I'd like see better than .500 conference record and more than .5 conference title. If Barnes were to actually accomplish anything no other coach has done here, I would tend to agree. At this point, he hasn't. And it doesn't look like he will this year either. But we'll see.
 
#118
#118
cncchris33 said:
I’ll have to wait until the conclusion of the 2021-22 season to answer that one, I guess.

Is the math really that hard?
Click to expand...

cncchris33 said:
I’ll have to wait until the conclusion of the 2021-22 season to answer that one, I guess.

Is the math really that hard?
Click to expand...

Math isn't hard at all. I simply have higher expectations for a coach that is paid like a Top 5 coach. So far... we haven't seen top 5 results, IMO.
 
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#119
#119
jeff1vol said:
If you really think that Barnes is the "be all, end all" for UT bball... great. I'd like see better than .500 conference record and more than .5 conference title. If Barnes were to actually accomplish anything no other coach has done here, I would tend to agree. At this point, he hasn't. And it doesn't look like he will this year either. But we'll see.
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Well, he’s 59-45 (and 22 of those conference loses came in his first two years). Something tells me that you weren’t a math major.
 
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#121
#121
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Well, he’s 59-45 (and 22 of those conference loses came in his first two years). Something tells me that you weren’t a math major.
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Really? 56% win percentage is not "around" .500? Semantics now. I should be VERY specific with you... "I'd like to see a better conference record than 56.7 winning percentage. If you're satisfied with that... fine. Not all of us are.
 
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#122
#122
VolGee4 said:
Lol. Where do you do research? He's 66 years old. He was an assistant for 10 years at North State, Davidson, George Mason, Alabama, and Ohio State. He got his first head coaching job in 1987.
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You obviously didn't see my previous post. Thanks!
 
#123
#123
jeff1vol said:
Really? 56% win percentage is not "around" .500? Semantics now. I should be VERY specific with you... "I'd like to see a better conference record than 56.7 winning percentage. If you're satisfied with that... fine. Not all of us are.
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45-23, 66% the last (almost) 4 years.
 
#124
#124
So, I just did the research on our favorite comparison, Bruce Pearl, since he's been at Auburn:

Nov.-Jan.- 85-40= 68%
Feb.-March- 40-38= 51%

If you take out his first two years:

Nov.-Jan.- 66-18= 78.5%
Feb.-March- 33-20= 62.2%

Comparison with numbers in previous post:
Total
Nov.-Feb.: Barnes (68.9%) v. Pearl (68%)
Feb.-March: Barnes (53.5%) v. Pearl (51%)

After first 2 years
Nov.-Feb.: Barnes (77.6%) v. Pearl (78.5%)
Feb.-March: Barnes (62.5%) v. Pearl (62.2%)

Just February (all years)
Barnes (52.2%) v. Pearl (45.8%)

Just March (all years)
Barnes (58.3%) v. Pearl (70%)* Pearl went 11-1 in March when they went to the FF. If you take it out, Pearl is 38.8% in March.

It is uncanny how close some of these numbers are.

Edit: This did not include this year, so however it ends from here, Barnes' numbers will get better considering that Pearl is 11-12.
 
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