Recruiting Forum Football Talk III

[SmokinBob]

. Painting is definitely not my forte. I would have never thought to align tiles.

Actually it looks like you centered each checker with a ceiling tile! I was impressed!

 

[captainfalcon777]

Bias is a human flaw, shared by all humans. On that point you’re right. Unfortunately, racism is something that goes far beyond simple bias. Racism involves the fear of loss— loss of control, loss of power, loss of wealth, loss of an established systemic order. It has been proven again and again that our very basic systems still remain very racist. There is white justice and black justice. There is black opportunity and white opportunity. These matters are statistically true. You don’t need to agree for them to be true. They are just facts. The chance of being unjustly arrested, unjustly charged, unjustly put to death are all higher for black people. The opportunities for many jobs are starkly different for black and white people. Compensation is different, promotions are different, rates of being promoted are different. Again, it’s not important to agree with these things because they are just facts. Anecdotal stories, of a person who runs counter to the statistics doesn’t change those realities. We are a long way from equality of opportunity. I wish that weren’t true, but it is. The myth of “hire the best” imagines a myth where there are two choices: a single qualified white candidate and a single unqualified black one. That is almost never the case. The truth is that there are usually many (very) qualified candidates. It’s insulting to the hard work of those considered to pretend otherwise. The myth of the superior white candidate who was passed over is a story told to stir people up. I’m impressed that this group is carrying on a civil debate about this topic. I’ve resisted participation because it’s a strange forum for the topic. That said, we can’t ignore that undoing slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow and lynching is going to take some time. That doesn’t mean I judge those who disagree with me here as “bad”. I just can’t sit on the sideline without noting that there is a lot more work to be done. That work comes in the form of doing the extra work of finding excellence in places we normally don’t look. It’s a cheap shot to pretend like that equates to hiring lesser candidates or lesser people. That is rarely the problem.

Agreed. You seem to have a brain, rare to see on the internet.

 

[SmokinBob]

I don’t have any answers for you brother.

one difference could be Saban has had 3 former minority coordinators end up with head coaching jobs and two other minority RB coaches get head coaching jobs as well.
not really sure but there’s a disconnect and I don’t know when it happened but it’s there.

I look back at our previous coaching staffs:
Jones in 2016, 4 of 9 - 1 of those was OC
Pruitt 2018, 5 of 10 - 2 were co-DCs & 1 Asst HC
Truth for me is I never cared or noticed what color our coaches were/are until today. Today I notice - but all that I care about is are they good men, and are they good coaches? If the answer to both is yes, thats all that matters to me. It does make me sad that there is a perception out there that says my university doesn’t welcome all with those characteristics.

 

[m1al]

With due respect to you and your opinion, saying it twice doesn’t make it anymore true. The concept of diversity has nothing to do with hiring an unqualified black candidate over a white one. That’s just a bogeyman that isn’t there. It’s a story that’s made up to make people angry, and it works. It just also happens to be false. The pursuit of diversity is based on the notion that we should seek proportional representation among equally qualified candidates. That shouldn’t be problematic.

Throwing out human nature and prejudices, there are many things that can make it "problematic", such as 'real world' variables that every hiring body has to deal with. Every situation is different, add to that, things like sample pool size, potential candidates willingness, time constraints, strategic fit, etc. make a "perfect" hire extremely difficult, if not impossible.

The main priority has to be what's best for the program and the University. Losing sight of that, for whatever reason, ultimately will cause more problems.

 

[SmokinBob]

I’m just so sick of the division in this world man.

I don’t care who you are, what you look like, if your skin is slightly darker than mine, etc..I’m still gonna love you & I’d do anything I possibly could to help out anybody on this site.

We’re never all going to agree on everything, & we may fight like brothers & sisters, but we can still all love each other. We all want the University of Tennessee to succeed & finally be a national power in football again. The things we disagree on are literally so minuscule in the grand scheme of life it doesn’t even deserve a wasted breath.

You made my eyes leak a little - you speak my heart.

 

[Ryno14]

At least it’s BasketVols GameDay. I want to beat Will Wade’s team (and his face) so badly today. GBO

 

[SweetasSoda]

Playing devil's advocate a little here, but white people, mostly men, have received preferential treatment for centuries, if not mellinnia. I'm not justifying hiring someone because they're a minority, I'm just saying white males have almost never gotten the bad end of the shaft, period. It really has been a ridiculous run.

Are you saying that all white men have received preferential treatment for centuries? How can anyone think this? I am genuinely curious. I'll just take for instance my Scotch/Irish ancestors that were sharecroppers to their British overlords until they managed to come to America and work hard as very poor farmers. They didn't own slaves. They weren't given anything. This does not include all the instances of actual white slaves in European history. White males never got the bad end of the shaft? Do you know about the Irish and Italian immigrants?.... This does not take away from what black people suffered during slavery or Jim Crow. Just saying you painted that with a broad brush.

 

[SweetasSoda]

Or he finally decided to stop pretending he had inside knowledge

Yes I know he helped people out here

Lol

 

[Type Orange+]

Playing devil's advocate a little here, but white people, mostly men, have received preferential treatment for centuries, if not mellinnia. I'm not justifying hiring someone because they're a minority, I'm just saying white males have almost never gotten the bad end of the shaft, period. It really has been a ridiculous run.

Well, I hope my family's turn comes around to my progeny, because it sure as hell passed me by.

 

[Weezer]

Bias is a human flaw, shared by all humans. On that point you’re right. Unfortunately, racism is something that goes far beyond simple bias. Racism involves the fear of loss— loss of control, loss of power, loss of wealth, loss of an established systemic order. It has been proven again and again that our very basic systems still remain very racist. There is white justice and black justice. There is black opportunity and white opportunity. These matters are statistically true. You don’t need to agree for them to be true. They are just facts. The chance of being unjustly arrested, unjustly charged, unjustly put to death are all higher for black people. The opportunities for many jobs are starkly different for black and white people. Compensation is different, promotions are different, rates of being promoted are different. Again, it’s not important to agree with these things because they are just facts. Anecdotal stories, of a person who runs counter to the statistics doesn’t change those realities. We are a long way from equality of opportunity. I wish that weren’t true, but it is. The myth of “hire the best” imagines a myth where there are two choices: a single qualified white candidate and a single unqualified black one. That is almost never the case. The truth is that there are usually many (very) qualified candidates. It’s insulting to the hard work of those considered to pretend otherwise. The myth of the superior white candidate who was passed over is a story told to stir people up. I’m impressed that this group is carrying on a civil debate about this topic. I’ve resisted participation because it’s a strange forum for the topic. That said, we can’t ignore that undoing slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow and lynching is going to take some time. That doesn’t mean I judge those who disagree with me here as “bad”. I just can’t sit on the sideline without noting that there is a lot more work to be done. That work comes in the form of doing the extra work of finding excellence in places we normally don’t look. It’s a cheap shot to pretend like that equates to hiring lesser candidates or lesser people. That is rarely the problem.

I agree 100% that there is still a lot of work to be done. But I would add the caveat that the work has to be done by BOTH sides. Many act as if the work only needs to come from one side, and that's just not true. In order to fix the problem, everyone needs to work together. White people need to respect the history of the black community, and what they have faced in this country, but black people need to realize the current white community does not carry the guilt of their ancestors. We need each other to move forward. In order for that to happen, we need to overcome past resentments. The biggest problem, IMO, is many in this country want to keep us divided so they play on those resentments.

Equality is everyone being treated the same, regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation. No one receives preferential treatment. And as you said, we still have a long way to get there. But neither side gets there alone, and eventually, we have to do away with the notion of sides and recognize we are one people.

 

[Weezer]

Playing devil's advocate a little here, but white people, mostly men, have received preferential treatment for centuries, if not mellinnia. I'm not justifying hiring someone because they're a minority, I'm just saying white males have almost never gotten the bad end of the shaft, period. It really has been a ridiculous run.

Here's my problem with your post. You assign blame to all white people. Many people do. It's an unfair assertion. Let me give you an analogy. I had a cousin, early 30's, had a 7 week old baby, he was shot and killed in an armed robbery. The 3 perpetrators were black teenagers. Would it be fair of me to blame the entire black community for his death? Of course not. Not ALL white people have lived this mythical life of privilege. I get it. Statistics back up that the system still treats AA unfairly. That doesn't mean all white people represent or benefit from the system. We keep breaking this down into a black and white problem and it goes much further than that. This becomes a difficult discussion to have because many only want to see one side, and there's more than one side.

 

[Weezer]

With due respect to you and your opinion, saying it twice doesn’t make it anymore true. The concept of diversity has nothing to do with hiring an unqualified black candidate over a white one. That’s just a bogeyman that isn’t there. It’s a story that’s made up to make people angry, and it works. It just also happens to be false. The pursuit of diversity is based on the notion that we should seek proportional representation among equally qualified candidates. That shouldn’t be problematic.

Proportional how? And here's my problem with you calling this concept a myth. We've already been turned down by two black candidates, and instead of turning to the third candidate on the board, who happens to be white, it's being made to sound as if we've decided to pursue more black candidates. Now if that's actually happening, I can't say for sure, I'm not an insider, but that's what has been presented to us. So how is that chasing a bogeyman? And why should race even be a qualification?

 

[Rishvol]

I'm gonna take my Hispanic privilege (because I feel left out) and tell all you white and black people to STFU... Am I doing it right?

 

[mrMet]

Damn I hope that isn’t Ziti.

I’ve often feared something bad happened to him after getting all that Bitcoin $

I’ve thought about this as well

 

[Weezer]

I don’t have any answers for you brother.

one difference could be Saban has had 3 former minority coordinators end up with head coaching jobs and two other minority RB coaches get head coaching jobs as well.
not really sure but there’s a disconnect and I don’t know when it happened but it’s there.

The biggest difference is Saban has had success and is winning which then reflects well on his staff, regardless of race. UT has not had that success. Dooley and Pruitt aren't even head coaches anymore, and Butch spent a few years as an intern for Saban before finally getting a HC job this year. Success breeds opportunity and we've not had that success in a very long time.

 

[RikidyBones]

Playing devil's advocate a little here, but white people, mostly men, have received preferential treatment for centuries, if not mellinnia. I'm not justifying hiring someone because they're a minority, I'm just saying white males have almost never gotten the bad end of the shaft, period. It really has been a ridiculous run.

Dumb af because it had nothing to do with skin color, historically. White people were just as enslaved. The Roman's alone show that vigorously. The Irish and Scots by the British. The Mongols, Persians, etc enslaved white people. The notion they received better treatment as a whole is disingenuous and I haven't even mentioned the Jews. Slavery was simply classed based by the conqueror. Back then we were tribal, not global which explains the above examples and even the early years of America.

If your answer to racism is over correcting with more racism then I'm not sure you're truly interested in an equal society. "Almost Never" is erroneous

 

[RikidyBones]

Yes. This is true. There are also different types of burns. There are burns that sting. Some that leave a scar and others than require you to amputate a limb. What racism has done to black people in America in particular is far worse than the vast majority of any type oppression that white people have experienced throughout history. The same white Americans who came here and massacred native Americans to get away from their oppression. As an adult, it’s irresponsible to create a false equivalent as a means to dilute the impact of racism on the black community. Racism is really bad guys. Racism allowed the Tulsa massacre to happen and nobody even bat an eye. Racism is why the FBI never declared the KKK as a terrorist organization but spared no expense to destroy the black panther party. I know a lot of you guys are conservative and such but please rethink your views.

This is incredibly false.

 

[mrMet]

Yes. This is true. There are also different types of burns. There are burns that sting. Some that leave a scar and others than require you to amputate a limb. What racism has done to black people in America in particular is far worse than the vast majority of any type oppression that white people have experienced throughout history. The same white Americans who came here and massacred native Americans to get away from their oppression. As an adult, it’s irresponsible to create a false equivalent as a means to dilute the impact of racism on the black community. Racism is really bad guys. Racism allowed the Tulsa massacre to happen and nobody even bat an eye. Racism is why the FBI never declared the KKK as a terrorist organization but spared no expense to destroy the black panther party. I know a lot of you guys are conservative and such but please rethink your views.

being conservative has nothing to do with this. You’re view about that IS the problem. Statistically look at oppression in liberal cities and states. It’s astronomical the differences to conservative ones. (I know I know, political forum, but don’t be ignorant)

 

[reVOLution33]

Bias is a human flaw, shared by all humans. On that point you’re right. Unfortunately, racism is something that goes far beyond simple bias. Racism involves the fear of loss— loss of control, loss of power, loss of wealth, loss of an established systemic order. It has been proven again and again that our very basic systems still remain very racist. There is white justice and black justice. There is black opportunity and white opportunity. These matters are statistically true. You don’t need to agree for them to be true. They are just facts. The chance of being unjustly arrested, unjustly charged, unjustly put to death are all higher for black people. The opportunities for many jobs are starkly different for black and white people. Compensation is different, promotions are different, rates of being promoted are different. Again, it’s not important to agree with these things because they are just facts. Anecdotal stories, of a person who runs counter to the statistics doesn’t change those realities. We are a long way from equality of opportunity. I wish that weren’t true, but it is. The myth of “hire the best” imagines a myth where there are two choices: a single qualified white candidate and a single unqualified black one. That is almost never the case. The truth is that there are usually many (very) qualified candidates. It’s insulting to the hard work of those considered to pretend otherwise. The myth of the superior white candidate who was passed over is a story told to stir people up. I’m impressed that this group is carrying on a civil debate about this topic. I’ve resisted participation because it’s a strange forum for the topic. That said, we can’t ignore that undoing slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow and lynching is going to take some time. That doesn’t mean I judge those who disagree with me here as “bad”. I just can’t sit on the sideline without noting that there is a lot more work to be done. That work comes in the form of doing the extra work of finding excellence in places we normally don’t look. It’s a cheap shot to pretend like that equates to hiring lesser candidates or lesser people. That is rarely the problem.

I have been told by HR of a company that I have worked for, that if I'm ever up for a "promotion" they would have to make sure they have there percentages of diversity hires before they could award my hard work with the promotion.

Therefore, it matters not if I'm the more qualified candidate for the job, I may be passed because of my skin color, ethnicity, gender, and whether I'm gay or straight.

Not exactly what I would call equal opportunity.

 

[Smokey X]

Sooo, WTF is going on in here? Been busy all day. Finally got a new job.. Good grief, what a long drought... We hire anyone else? Have the wheels come off? Are they wobbling? Any good, new rumors?

.

 

[Vols_Life]

Ok, that's it...you all keep this racist rant/divisive BS going on then some of us going to have to be all like...


...on your arses

 

[rekinhavoc]

We hire Conklin yet.

 

[thomaseusin]

Summing up for the morning crew..


.
But seriously, it’s been a fascinating read. Nowhere else would we get a civil discussion hearing all sides without actual physical altercations. Except those Waffle House kerfuffles.

Thanks VN.

 

[mrMet]

I have been told by HR of a company that I have worked for, that if I'm ever up for a "promotion" they would have to make sure they have there percentages of diversity hires before they could award my hard work with the promotion.

Therefore, it matters not if I'm the more qualified candidate for the job, I may be passed because of my skin color, ethnicity, gender, and whether I'm gay or straight.

Not exactly what I would call equal opportunity.

bUt WhItE pRiVilEgE

 

[Jackcrevol]

Playing devil's advocate a little here, but white people, mostly men, have received preferential treatment for centuries, if not mellinnia. I'm not justifying hiring someone because they're a minority, I'm just saying white males have almost never gotten the bad end of the shaft, period. It really has been a ridiculous run.

you coulda made your pt and stopped at 'mellinnia'.