The Last Dance - A 10-PART DOCUMENTARY EVENT

#577
#577
95 Vol Alum said:
Did he and Scottie have a deal to play together? I know Pip probably wanted to be traded to a contender but did he specifically say he wanted to go to Houston with Chuck?

I am struggling to see where Pippen has to feel obligated to Charles in this scenario unless they colluded behind the scenes to make it happen only to see Pippen leave after 1 season. Pippen is no saint, but he made one long, bad financial decision that helped a team for almost a decade. Why would anyone be surprised by his selfishness after that?
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He has no obligation to him but his beef was essentially about what Chuck was willing to do to win. The reality is Chuck gave up money and outplayed Pippen and Pip has the audacity to dog him
 
#578
#578
n_huffhines said:
He has no obligation to him but his beef was essentially about what Chuck was willing to do to win. The reality is Chuck gave up money and outplayed Pippen and Pip has the audacity to dog him
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Agree on that point. No need to call Chuck a fat butt or whatever.
 
#579
#579
This Zach Lowe interview was really good. Y'all should check it out.

I didn't realize this, but the Magic offered Barkley the GM job and he wouldn't take it because he wanted complete control over hiring and they weren't offering that. How could anybody offer Chuck a job like that? He doesn't understand the modern NBA or the players. He literally said a jump-shooting team will never win a championship right before a jump-shooting team won 3 in 4 years.
 
#580
#580
n_huffhines said:
This Zach Lowe interview was really good. Y'all should check it out.

I didn't realize this, but the Magic offered Barkley the GM job and he wouldn't take it because he wanted complete control over hiring and they weren't offering that. How could anybody offer Chuck a job like that? He doesn't understand the modern NBA or the players. He literally said a jump-shooting team will never win a championship right before a jump-shooting team won 3 in 4 years.
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Even as bad as Barkley would be. I would say he would've done better with full control than Jordan does as an owner. Barkley wouldn't have drafted Morrison.
 
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#584
#584
k-town_king said:
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View attachment 280024

Very interesting stats
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Ooh, do Mo Williams and his 17ppg and All-Star appearance next to LeBron.

Or, alternatively, try to make an argument on who’s better based on a meme comparing only certain selected teammates in only one category. That seems smart
 
#585
#585
NashVol11 said:
Ooh, do Mo Williams and his 17ppg and All-Star appearance next to LeBron.

Or, alternatively, try to make an argument on who’s better based on a meme comparing only certain selected teammates in only one category. That seems smart
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Also, career ppg comparisons alone is one of the worst ways to assess a ball-dominant player's impact on teammates. Lebron takes 18-20 fgapg (and he was shooting even more by necessity with the scrubs back in the day in Cleveland), so there are fewer shots for everybody else.

Kyrie went from 20.8 ppg off 17.4 fgapg in 2014 to 21.7 ppg off 16.5 fgapg in 2015. He was scoring more off less. And he did a very efficient 25.2 ppg in 2017, which is still his 2nd best year in that category.

Anthony Davis is having his 3rd best PPG season and his most efficient shooting season.

Two of Wade's three most efficient years were with Lebron....three of his five most efficient years, too. His worst efficiency year with Lebron was higher than his career average.

From 3, with Lebron, Chalmers shot 36%, 39%, 41%, and 39%...he was a career 35% 3p shooter.

This is all just cherry-picking, too. I did randomly pick these guys but I looked at Bosh too, and his efficiency was the same so I skipped him. I'm sure I could find some guys who shot worse with Lebron. It's hard to use stats to determine who was elevated and who wasn't, especially when doofus doesn't care about efficiency. I just look at those teams he dragged to the finals. I look at this current Lakers team where literally everybody was doubting that he and AD had the supporting cast to compete with the best teams.
 
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#586
#586
I tried to find some data on how much better Lebron makes AD with the Lakers. Couldn't find anything on individual stats, but I did find this shocking result:

1590071237642.png

I don't think the stat is saying they are better without Davis. I imagine they see better opposing lineups with both in the game. Davis needs a playmaker to set him up and the Lakers don't really have that, aside from Lebron.
 
#587
#587
NashVol11 said:
Ooh, do Mo Williams and his 17ppg and All-Star appearance next to LeBron.

Or, alternatively, try to make an argument on who’s better based on a meme comparing only certain selected teammates in only one category. That seems smart
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Let's.
Mo Williams was even better in Milwaukee 😂

Good point. lebron did not elevate Moe to All Star play. He just got him some pub playing with Lebron.
 
#588
#588
Lebron has not elevated one decent player. He has drug a few of the down from All Star and Salt NBA to role players though @NashVol11 and @n_huffhines


Either one of you name a even decent player who had their best season while playing with Lebron.

They either did what they had been doing before Lebron. AD is a great example. Or were worse than their peak by being turned into role players. Bosh, Love, etc.
 
#589
#589
k-town_king said:
Lebron has not elevated one decent player. He has drug a few of the down from All Star and Salt NBA to role players though @NashVol11 and @n_huffhines


Either one of you name a even decent player who had their best season while playing with Lebron.

They either did what they had been doing before Lebron. AD is a great example. Or were worse than their peak by being turned into role players. Bosh, Love, etc.
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Bosh and Love took fewer FGA's by necessity. IDK how this mathematical certainty escapes you, but the 3rd star on a team is not going to get his shots, unless it's one of those rare guys like Klay who can score 20+ pts off 3 dribbles. It's the same reason Horace Grant went to an all-star game when Jordan retired. Was Jordan holding him back? No. He was the same quality player, he just got more touches in Jordan's absence.

Bosh and Love took a back seat because they wanted to be champions, and their stats decreased because Lebron and Wade/Kyrie were better offensive options than them.
 
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#590
#590
n_huffhines said:
Bosh and Love took fewer FGA's by necessity. IDK how this mathematical certainty escapes you, but the 3rd star on a team is not going to get his shots, unless it's one of those rare guys like Klay who can score 20+ pts off 3 dribbles. It's the same reason Horace Grant went to an all-star game when Jordan retired. Was Jordan holding him back? No. He was the same quality player, he just got more touches in Jordan's absence.

Bosh and Love took a back seat because they wanted to be champions, and their stats decreased because Lebron and Wade/Kyrie were better offensive options than them.
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Ho Grant averaged a shot and a half more and 2 more points without MJ. Then when he was in other places with no MJ he was worse than his years as a third or fourth option with the Bulls.

Mike did not hold him back. He was better with the Bulls than Magic.

Mike helped him maximize his potential.

Lebron helps players maximize how to fit into the Lebron dribble 18 seconds and layup or kick out o.
 
#593
#593
k-town_king said:
Ho Grant averaged a shot and a half more and 2 more points without MJ. Then when he was in other places with no MJ he was worse than his years as a third or fourth option with the Bulls.

Mike did not hold him back. He was better with the Bulls than Magic.

Mike helped him maximize his potential.

Lebron helps players maximize how to fit into the Lebron dribble 18 seconds and layup or kick out o.
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Since you’ve chosen this idiotic metric, Grant’s highest-scoring season was without MJ.
 
#594
#594
k-town_king said:
Lebron has not elevated one decent player. He has drug a few of the down from All Star and Salt NBA to role players though @NashVol11 and @n_huffhines


Either one of you name a even decent player who had their best season while playing with Lebron.

They either did what they had been doing before Lebron. AD is a great example. Or were worse than their peak by being turned into role players. Bosh, Love, etc.
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Mo Williams. His highest-scoring season and only ASG appearance was with LeBron.
 
#595
#595
This is such a dumb discussion, though. Kevin Love was playing in Minnesota with no one. He then joins a contending team with a 28ppg and 20ppg scorer and he’s supposed to score MORE?

When KG joined the Celtics, he scored less. When Durant joined the Warriors, he scored less. Hell, when Rodman joined the Bulls, he scored far less. Pippen and Grant both reached scoring career-highs when Jordan was gone. That’s how this works. Teammate scoring average is such a dumb metric to use for so many reasons.
 
#596
#596
NashVol11 said:
Mo Williams. His highest-scoring season and only ASG appearance was with LeBron.
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He averaged half a point more and 2 less assists and one less rebound than the previous season.


As a pg averaging 2 more assists 1 more rebound and .5 points less is a better year.

He was better in Milwaukee. He had basically the same scoring average but put up a couple more assists and rebounds too.

Lebron did not make him better. If anything he was worse.
 
#597
#597
k-town_king said:
He averaged half a point more and 2 less assists and one less rebound than the previous season.


As a pg averaging 2 more assists 1 more rebound and .5 points less is a better year.

He was better in Milwaukee. He had basically the same scoring average but put up a couple more assists and rebounds too.

Lebron did not make him better. If anything he was worse.
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You move the goalposts with literally every post.

You want to add context, then fine, let’s talk about how (as Huff previously posted) a number of stars enjoyed their most efficient seasons with LeBron. Let’s talk about how people thought Mario Chalmers was a good young player for a minute, while he (like Mo Williams) was shooting wide open 3s next to LeBron, and how he was out of the league entirely almost immediately after LeBron left.

But let me guess: tHeY sCoReD mOrE iN oThEr SeAsOnS
 
#598
#598
95 Vol Alum said:
I’m with Brown. I am not really arguing the differences you are noting in the type of players. But what defensive innovations are we seeing outside of the that. None that I would note.

All this switching has resulted in higher than ever offensive ratings and scoring. Most strategies are to not let them play D.
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Tom Thibodeau built his career off of defensive innovations that would have been illegal in Jordan’s day. The illegal defense rule had a bigger impact on defense than hand checking did
 
#599
#599
k-town_king said:
Lebron has not elevated one decent player. He has drug a few of the down from All Star and Salt NBA to role players though @NashVol11 and @n_huffhines


Either one of you name a even decent player who had their best season while playing with Lebron.

They either did what they had been doing before Lebron. AD is a great example. Or were worse than their peak by being turned into role players. Bosh, Love, etc.
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Also, Pippen, Rodman and Grant all enjoyed their best seasons without Jordan, so what point are you even trying to make?
 
#600
#600
NashVol11 said:
You move the goalposts with literally every post.

You want to add context, then fine, let’s talk about how (as Huff previously posted) a number of stars enjoyed their most efficient seasons with LeBron. Let’s talk about how people thought Mario Chalmers was a good young player for a minute, while he (like Mo Williams) was shooting wide open 3s next to LeBron, and how he was out of the league entirely almost immediately after LeBron left.

But let me guess: tHeY sCoReD mOrE iN oThEr SeAsOnS
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Nobody thought Chalmers was a good young player. If they did it was debunked when Lebron came. When he Left Chalmers was damn near thirty. Chalmers was out the league because he was an overpaid 31 year old who had been injured. He played ten seasons. lmao


"Chalmers tore his right Achilles tendon on March 9, 2016 while playing for the Grizzlies. He missed the balance of that season as well as all of last season, before signing back with the Grizzlies on a minimal contract, finding added playing time amid the injury absence of Mike Conley.
"Just getting healthy, really," Chalmers, 31, said of being away from the game last season. "Last year I felt like that I could have come back, but I wouldn't have been myself, I wouldn't have been able to do the things that teams expect me to do.
"So that was best for me, best for my career, just to take the whole year off and really get healthy, and just come into this year with a clear mind, fully healthy and ready to play."


When Chalmers went to Memphis he was the same player. Just like Mo Williams was the same player in Milwaukee with slightly better all around stats. MC got old and hurt. He did not miss playing with LBJ.

Chalmers
MIA- 8.9 ppg 3.8 apg 2.4 rpg
Mem- 9.1 ppg 3.4 apg 2.5 rpg

Its easy to be efficient when one guy is ball hogging so you get a limited number of shots. Most efcient season and best season are not even connected. Huff is an efficiency whore. That isn't new.


Lebron fans are always so ignorant of any context or history its sad. But if you knew basketball you wouldn't be pumping a top 5-10 player as a top three player anyway.
 
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