Orangeslice13, a blessing to those around him…..Again

#7,526
#7,526
So if we’re ok on not knowing who wrote Hebrews as it’s unknown the we can move on to the errors.
same Verses.
Hebrews 2
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved [b]unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just [c]penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? [d]After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

2. The word was not spoken through angles. That a gnostic belief. Sometimes the angles dilivered messages but the “word” or Torah instruction referenced here was written/spoken under inspiration of the spirit by Men. Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, ect.
3. The message of salvation was not first spoken through the Lord at his incarnation but was written down by those same men most specifically Daniel.
 
#7,527
#7,527
Orangeslice13 said:
If you think that’s an argument then I apologize.

You’ve asked a question and I answered it. I thought I was clear that if you disagree then it’s cool.

I’m not sure why we were doubling back to Paul and his authorship but I took one more shot at answering without any malice.
Click to expand...

No need to apologize, I said "argue" because I didn't want it to get to that. Lol. "I don't want to argue". I'm using a NASB because that's what you said you use. But you've already said "but in the original language the author clearly states's"...so I felt like you moved the goal posts on me. If not, my bad, but that's why I said I was concerned with misunderstandings between us both. But whatever... No problem.

Again, I asked because I wasn't sure of your answer. Sorry.

On this, I thought I made it clear I wasn't doubling back to who wrote it, at least that wasn't my intention.

I'll respond to your other post in a few. I had a test this morning and just now getting back.
 
#7,528
#7,528
Orangeslice13 said:
So if we’re ok on not knowing who wrote Hebrews as it’s unknown the we can move on to the errors.
same Verses.
Hebrews 2
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved [b]unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just [c]penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? [d]After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

2. The word was not spoken through angles. That a gnostic belief. Sometimes the angles dilivered messages but the “word” or Torah instruction referenced here was written/spoken under inspiration of the spirit by Men. Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, ect.
.
Click to expand...

2. I believe it was. (Lol, the carpenter in you is coming out. " Angels")


If "word" is the same as "Law".....Deuteronomy 33:2 says..
2 He said,
“The Lord came from Sinai,
And [a]dawned on them from Seir;
He shone forth from Mount Paran,
And He came from the [b]midst of ten thousand holy ones;
At His right hand there was[c]flashing lightning for them.

Galatians 3:19
19 Why the Law then? It was added[a]because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the [b]agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Acts 7:53
53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.”

I believe its possible too that "word" just meant messages like with Lot in Genesis 19.
 
#7,529
#7,529
Behr said:
2. I believe it was. (Lol, the carpenter in you is coming out. " Angels")


If "word" is the same as "Law".....Deuteronomy 33:2 says..
2 He said,
“The Lord came from Sinai,
And [a]dawned on them from Seir;
He shone forth from Mount Paran,
And He came from the [b]midst of ten thousand holy ones;
At His right hand there was[c]flashing lightning for them.

Galatians 3:19
19 Why the Law then? It was added[a]because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the [b]agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Acts 7:53
53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.”

I believe its possible too that "word" just meant messages like with Lot in Genesis 19.
Click to expand...

Ordained is past tense and had Hebrews used that terminology then it would have been correct and consistent with the rest of the scripture you posted. The prophets spoke it and the angles ordained/verified/enforce/secure/protected it.
 
#7,530
#7,530
Behr said:
No need to apologize, I said "argue" because I didn't want it to get to that. Lol. "I don't want to argue". I'm using a NASB because that's what you said you use. But you've already said "but in the original language the author clearly states's"...so I felt like you moved the goal posts on me. If not, my bad, but that's why I said I was concerned with misunderstandings between us both. But whatever... No problem.

Again, I asked because I wasn't sure of your answer. Sorry.

On this, I thought I made it clear I wasn't doubling back to who wrote it, at least that wasn't my intention.

I'll respond to your other post in a few. I had a test this morning and just now getting back.
Click to expand...

as far as moving the goalposts.....I believe the NASB and ESV to be the most accurate. That doesn’t mean that I believe they are the final say. Each person is commanded to be as the Bereans and search to make sure what you’re reading is true.
I start with the NASB and study the word usages from there.
The goalposts haven’t moved because there are not any. I’m not trying to convince you of anything. Just telling you what I believe and why. And only because you asked.
 
#7,531
#7,531
Let me give you an example.
Romans 10:4 says
4 For Christ is the [a]end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

notice the footnote.
A) Romans 10:4 Or goal

The word translated in that verse as “end” is translated as “goal” everywhere else it’s used in scripture.
That simple change makes a huge difference in the meaning.
 
#7,532
#7,532
In the case of Romans 4 we know Messiah said the law would not pass away till heaven and earth did so which is the more accurate word choice, “end” or “Goal”

The NASB helps believers to avoid confusion and get to truth. But it’s still up to us to research it further.
 
#7,534
#7,534
Orangeslice13 said:
Ordained is past tense and had Hebrews used that terminology then it would have been correct and consistent with the rest of the scripture you posted. The prophets spoke it and the angles ordained/verified/enforce/secure/protected it.
Click to expand...

Okay, 2 is past tense..

2 For if the word spoken through angels proved [b]unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just [c]penalty,
 
#7,535
#7,535
Behr said:
Okay, 2 is past tense..

2 For if the word spoken through angels proved [b]unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just [c]penalty,
Click to expand...

Correct,
Hebrews 2 is wrong because it says “spoken” by the angles.
The word was spoken by men under inspiration of the spirit.
The rest of the scripture is consistent with one another and correct as the angles “ ordained” what had been spoken by the prophets.
 
#7,536
#7,536
Orangeslice13 said:
Correct,
Hebrews 2 is wrong because it says “spoken” by the angles.
The word was spoken by men under inspiration of the spirit.
The rest of the scripture is consistent with one another and correct as the angles “ ordained” what had been spoken by the prophets.
Click to expand...

What is "The Word"?
 
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#7,538
#7,538
as long as we’re talking about Hebrews not understanding angles and what they do.

Hebrews 1

But to which of the angels has He ever said,

“Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Your enemies
A footstool for Your feet”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?


Is 14 correct?
Are they all ministering sprits who have been sent out for the sake of those who are righteous?

(Hint: no. That’s not what all angles do. )
 
#7,539
#7,539
Back to who speaks the words of G-d to humanity for G-d.

19 [k]So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.


Men moved by the Spirit spoke for G-d.
 
#7,540
#7,540
Its obvious to me Angels were an important part of the Jewish religion, mostly because of Deuteronomy 33:2. Angels were called the "sons of God" in Job 1:6. No Angel was called that individually but they were collectively. Since the theme of Hebrews seems to be the superiority of Christ and His salvation to the law of Moses, I believe Angels are a big part of it.


Yes, I believe God used Angels to speak for him. He used them a lot, in visions and dreams, spirit and in human form. Where does it say it specifically, besides delivering messages? In Hebrews. Yea, I know, but that's why we're having this discussion. You believe it's crap and I don't. In my opinion its pretty clear and in yours its pretty clear. Its as hard for me to understand you not getting this as it is for you to not understand me not getting it. But, I'm loving what I'm learning so its all good.

Orangeslice13 said:
Back to who speaks the words of G-d to humanity for G-d.

19 [k]So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.


Men moved by the Spirit spoke for G-d.
Click to expand...

Yea, I know how I want to address this but I'll need more time to look for the scripture. I have a pretty good knowledge of parts of the Bible, but not a lot of it, obviously I don't have the knowledge you have of it or I could at least respond quicker. I know some things but don't know where they are, that's evidence of not having a good solid knowledge of it. Some things I know very well.

Anyway, I was looking at 2 Peter and ended up in Daniel. Lol. I'll pick it back up in the morning.

*Angels
 
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#7,542
#7,542
I get distracted easily especially with this Hebrews stuff I'm not familiar with. Not just because its so interesting itself, but when one reference takes me to one place then a reference from there takes me somewhere else and so on, 2 hours have passed and I almost forget where I started.
 
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#7,544
#7,544
Behr said:
I get distracted easily especially with this Hebrews stuff I'm not familiar with. Not just because its so interesting itself, but when one reference takes me to one place then a reference from there takes me somewhere else and so on, 2 hours have passed and I almost forget where I started.
Click to expand...
That’s beautiful.
Think of all the information you’re processing. That’s why these conversations are so valuable.
I hope you don’t get bored with it. I only have roughly 90 more things to discuss in Hebrews. Lol
 
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#7,545
#7,545
Behr said:
Its obvious to me Angels were an important part of the Jewish religion, mostly because of Deuteronomy 33:2. Angels were called the "sons of God" in Job 1:6. No Angel was called that individually but they were collectively. Since the theme of Hebrews seems to be the superiority of Christ and His salvation to the law of Moses, I believe Angels are a big part of it.


Yes, I believe God used Angels to speak for him. He used them a lot, in visions and dreams, spirit and in human form. Where does it say it specifically, besides delivering messages? In Hebrews. Yea, I know, but that's why we're having this discussion. You believe it's crap and I don't. In my opinion its pretty clear and in yours its pretty clear. Its as hard for me to understand you not getting this as it is for you to not understand me not getting it. But, I'm loving what I'm learning so its all good.



Yea, I know how I want to address this but I'll need more time to look for the scripture. I have a pretty good knowledge of parts of the Bible, but not a lot of it, obviously I don't have the knowledge you have of it or I could at least respond quicker. I know some things but don't know where they are, that's evidence of not having a good solid knowledge of it. Some things I know very well.

Anyway, I was looking at 2 Peter and ended up in Daniel. Lol. I'll pick it back up in the morning.

*Angels
Click to expand...

Meh
Spellin is overrated.

And Angles (my phone defaults to that. Could be my occupation. I’m not wasting time changing it back) absolutely deliver messages from G-d. There are too many examples to list. But that’s not the implication of Hebrews. The Word of G-d (instruction/Torah/prophecy) isn’t and has never been spoken/delivered by Angels (if I capitalize it seems to help) the Angles role there is to Ordain not originate.
 
#7,546
#7,546
Hebrews 7:18 contradicts Both Messiah and Paul.

Hebrews 7:18
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

There is a setting aside of “a command” that is immediately defined as the law.

But Messiah says.
Mathew 5

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches [i]others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Jesus says nothing has passed from the law until heaven and earth pass away. The sacrifices are different because of Messiah who martyred himself for his people but that is within the law and by the law. nothing has passed from the law.

And Paul agrees with Messiah.

Paul spends the entire Ch 7 of Romans talking to those who know the law. He explained in detail the difference in function of the law. And conclusion rightly in Ch 8 that there’s no condemnation for believers but never says the law/rules have changed or been set aside.

8:1
8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [a]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

So Paul says it’s your guilt that’s removed not the definition of sin.
In fact Paul goes on to say that G-ds people still submit themselves to the law of G-d.

Romans 8:

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul clearly says that those who love G-d subject or submitt themselves to the law of G-d (Torah) those who love the world (flesh) do not and can not.

I know that will take some time to process
 
#7,547
#7,547
I don't give a flip flop about your spelling of angels or anything else, I was just teasing.
 
#7,549
#7,549
Orangeslice13 said:
Meh
The Word of G-d (instruction/Torah/prophecy) isn’t and has never been spoken/delivered by Angels (if I capitalize it seems to help) the Angles role there is to Ordain not originate.
Click to expand...

Youve mentioned that several times. You mentioned before that 30% of the guys that chose what books are in the Bible agree with you. That means 70% don't and felt Hebrews should be included.

Why do you think it made it in? I've got commentary by 7 different really intelligent guys that date back to the 1600's. They all have some different ideas on Hebrews, but they all agree on how important it is.

It's weird how they all go into sometimes overwhelming detail on seemingly everything, except on (the word spoken through Angels - NASB) .....(the word spoken by Angels - KJV) ....(the message declared by Angels - ESV). My point is I understand your "argument" that its not documented anywhere other than here. But since I believe the way I do I have to believe its because its not important.That it's just saying the Angels have talked about it or told others about it etc. and its the most important thing in life to all if us.

Obviously I'm not expecting to agree, but do you understand what I'm saying?
 
#7,550
#7,550
Orangeslice13 said:
I know brother.

I just heard That a good buddy has died.
I’m at a loss for anything at the moment.
Reach out to me if you still have my email
Click to expand...

I was typing that response above for 45 minutes Lol, I did get interrupted though.


Yea, I heard about that this morning. I'm shocked. No, I know I don't have it, I changed everything a couple of years ago.
 
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