WaPo vindicates Trump, acknowledges CDC/FDA failures for six weeks

#51
#51
BowlBrother85 said:
Donald Trump's interview with Joe Kernan of CNBC on January 22nd makes it clear that is an outright lie.

Once again:

Joe Kernan: "Are there worries about a pandemic at this point?"

President Donald Trump: "No. Not at all. And we have it totally under control. It's one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It's going to be just fine."

Any attempt now, to revise history is easily de-bunked by Trump's own words. Trump is on record on January 22nd saying the Coronavirus wouldn't become a pandemic and was completely under control. If Trump is saying that he saw this coming, he was either lying on January 22nd, or he is lying now. It really doesn't matter which one it is. He is a liar either way.
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Sadly, this doesn't seem to make much of a difference when you're dealing with a conspiratorial cult.
 
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#52
#52
tvolsfan said:
I’m going to take a wild guess and say you probably believe there is a deep state, right?
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Of course there’s a deep state. Now it’s not what most people think it is, like cigarette smoking man from the X-Files, somehow controlling the country from behind a small desk in Washington. However there is a deep state and that deep state is the bureaucracy. That bureaucracy is filled with lifelong employees who will go to great lengths to protect the bureaucracy. Why do you think military officials, a lot of whom are deeply conservative individuals, freak the **** out anytime someone dare suggest cutting one penny from the defense budget?
 
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#53
#53
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#54
#54
tvolsfan said:
Your reply was a glorified diarrhea of right wing buzz words. I've seen the "arguments" (it's amazing this deep state fabricated an investigation without bothering to cook any evidence, but I guess it's a really incompetent deep state).

And no, failing to find sufficient evidence of Trump colluding with Russia does not prove the investigation was unfounded. At all. Especially considering what it did find about his subordinates and his son.
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And your replies are evasive acknowledgements you've no argument.

Here, point out the right wing buzz words to me, I'll wait.

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From the IG report:
“We found that the FBI did not have information corroborating the specific allegations against Carter Page in Steele’s reporting when it relied upon his reports in the first FISA application or subsequent renewal applications,”
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“A lawyer at the FBI creates fraudulent evidence, alters an email that is in turn used as the basis for a sworn statement to the court that the court relies on,” Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) said. “Am I stating that accurately?”

“That’s correct,” Horowitz confirmed. “That’s what occurred.”
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The IG report found: “In an email from the liaison to the OGC Attorney, the liaison provided written guidance, including that it was the liaison’s recollection that Page had a relationship with the other agency, and directed the OGC Attorney to review the information that the other agency had provided to the FBI in August 2016. As noted above, that August 2016 information stated that Page did, in fact, have a prior relationship with that other agency. However, the OGC Attorney altered the liaison’s email by inserting the words ‘not a source’ into it, thus making it appear that the liaison had said that Page was “not a source”; the OGC Attorney then sent the altered email to SSA 2. Relying upon this altered email, SSA 2 signed the third renewal application (that again failed to disclose Page’s past relationship with the other agency).”
------------------------------------
Presiding FISC judge Jame Boasberg:

“DOJ assesses that with respect to the applications in Docket Numbers 17-375 and 17-679, ‘if not earlier, there was insufficient predication to establish probable cause to believe that [Carter] Page was acting as an agent of a foreign power,'”
“The Court understands the government to have concluded, in view of the material misstatements and omissions, that the Court’s authorizations in Docket Numbers 17-375 and 17-679 were not valid.”
------------------------------------
FISC Judge Collyer:

“The frequency with which representations made by FBI personnel turned out to be unsupported or contradicted by information in their possession, and with which they withheld information detrimental to their case, calls into question whether information contained in other FBI applications is reliable.”

“The OIG Report…documents troubling instances in which FBI personnel provided information to NSD [National Security Division] which was unsupported or contradicted by information in their possession.

It also describes several instances in which FBI personnel withheld from NSD information in their possession which was detrimental to their case for believing that Mr. Page was acting as an agent of a foreign power.”
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#55
#55
NCFisher said:
And your replies are evasive acknowledgements you've no argument.

Here, point out the right wing buzz words to me, I'll wait.

-----------------------------------------
From the IG report:
“We found that the FBI did not have information corroborating the specific allegations against Carter Page in Steele’s reporting when it relied upon his reports in the first FISA application or subsequent renewal applications,”
-----------------------------------------
“A lawyer at the FBI creates fraudulent evidence, alters an email that is in turn used as the basis for a sworn statement to the court that the court relies on,” Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) said. “Am I stating that accurately?”

“That’s correct,” Horowitz confirmed. “That’s what occurred.”
-----------------------------------------
The IG report found: “In an email from the liaison to the OGC Attorney, the liaison provided written guidance, including that it was the liaison’s recollection that Page had a relationship with the other agency, and directed the OGC Attorney to review the information that the other agency had provided to the FBI in August 2016. As noted above, that August 2016 information stated that Page did, in fact, have a prior relationship with that other agency. However, the OGC Attorney altered the liaison’s email by inserting the words ‘not a source’ into it, thus making it appear that the liaison had said that Page was “not a source”; the OGC Attorney then sent the altered email to SSA 2. Relying upon this altered email, SSA 2 signed the third renewal application (that again failed to disclose Page’s past relationship with the other agency).”
------------------------------------
Presiding FISC judge Jame Boasberg:

“DOJ assesses that with respect to the applications in Docket Numbers 17-375 and 17-679, ‘if not earlier, there was insufficient predication to establish probable cause to believe that [Carter] Page was acting as an agent of a foreign power,'”
“The Court understands the government to have concluded, in view of the material misstatements and omissions, that the Court’s authorizations in Docket Numbers 17-375 and 17-679 were not valid.”
------------------------------------
FISC Judge Collyer:

“The frequency with which representations made by FBI personnel turned out to be unsupported or contradicted by information in their possession, and with which they withheld information detrimental to their case, calls into question whether information contained in other FBI applications is reliable.”

“The OIG Report…documents troubling instances in which FBI personnel provided information to NSD [National Security Division] which was unsupported or contradicted by information in their possession.

It also describes several instances in which FBI personnel withheld from NSD information in their possession which was detrimental to their case for believing that Mr. Page was acting as an agent of a foreign power.”
-------------------------------------
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Uh, none of that is proof of a deep state. In fact, the horowitz report found no evidence of bias.
 
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#57
#57
0nelilreb said:
There’s that phrase again , what is this deep state you speak of ? ( specifically)
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The deep state conspiracy is clearly molded by individuals so people can see what they want to see in it. I'm referring to it the way I believe Trump uses it (as well as Lou Dobbs and Hannity). As a catchall to deflect news and criticism that Trump doesn't like.
 
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#58
#58
tvolsfan said:
The deep state conspiracy is clearly molded by individuals so people can see what they want to see in it. I'm referring to it the way I believe Trump uses it (as well as Lou Dobbs and Hannity). As a catchall to deflect news and criticism that Trump doesn't like.
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Why would you listen to Lou Dobbs or Hannity ? They get paid to be cheerleaders , just like Don Lemon or Rachel Maddow .
 
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#59
#59
0nelilreb said:
Why would you listen to Lou Dobbs or Hannity ? They get paid to be cheerleaders , just like Don Lemon or Rachel Maddow .
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I don't, but they, along with Trump, are probably the main people spreading the conspiracy. I'm willing to be the overwhelming majority of people who believe the deep state conspiracy listen to at least one of these three consistently and believe most of what they say.
 
#60
#60
BowlBrother85 said:
Nothing you have posted in your long-winded and pretentious drivel, changes the numerous times that Donald Trump publicly downplayed or tried to minimize the threat of the Coronavirus to the American people. Whether Trump thought he was just reducing the impact of a panic on the markets (they have crashed anyway) or not, Trump was engaging in dismissive rhetoric, such as this:

When asked in a television interview from Davos, Switzerland on January 22nd by CNBC's Joe Kernan:

"Are there worries about a pandemic at this point?" - CNBC's Joe Kernan

... and Trump responded with:

"No. Not at all. And we have it totally under control. It's one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It's going to be just fine." - President Donald Trump

By this point, the seriousness of the virus was becoming clearer. It had spread from China to four other countries. China was starting to take drastic measures and was on the verge of closing off the city of Wuhan. President Donald Trump was well aware of this and yet, Trump remained publicly very dismissive of it becoming a pandemic.

Furthermore, in an interview with his buddy, Sean Hannity of Fox News on January 31st, Hannity asked Trump this question:

"Coronavirus" .... "How concerned are you?" - Sean Hannity, Fox News

and Trump responded with:

"Well, we pretty much shut it down coming in from China. We have a tremendous relationship with China, which is a very positive thing. Getting along with China, getting along with Russia, getting along with these countries." - President Donald Trump

It should be noted, that Trump is now derisively referring to the Coronavirus as the "Chinese virus". So much for all of that goodwill with China, right? LOL.

Finally, I think the worst sign of weakness that Trump has displayed during this crisis was his pathetic attempt to shift scrutiny and scorn over to his predecessor, Barack Obama. Trump has tried to blame the shortage of Coronavirus test kits on a still as of yet unnamed rule or regulation implemented under the Obama Administration. The reality is that there was no formal document that Trump needed to rescind to allow labs to create their own coronavirus tests. Even if there had been, there was nothing to prevent the Trump Administration from removing it earlier in the outbreak, or prior to the outbreak. Trump has been President for 3 years now, after all. This was a sign of Trump's insecurity and it was pure weakness on his part. Trump made a gross miscalculation here by perceiving the Coronavirus to be a public relations threat to his re-election bid, rather than an existential threat to the nation. Trump is too egocentric and self-absorbed to be an effective leader.
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China had not even released the genome sequencing until Jan 12 and hidden from the world was happening, and still is. What do you expect from Trump on Jan 22 when NO ONE had declared or predicted pandemic?

As of 20 January 2020, 282 confirmed cases of 2019-nCoV have been reported from four countries including China (278 cases), Thailand (2 cases), Japan (1 case) and the Republic of Korea (1 case); https://www.who.int/docs/default-so...0121-sitrep-1-2019-ncov.pdf?sfvrsn=20a99c10_4

That's also the day the U.S. recorded the first infection. So, no, the "seriousness of the virus was becoming clearer" wasn't clearer on Jan 21 as you imply.

On Jan 23, Wuhan was isolated by the CCP. What was known at the time - as rendered by the CCP - is that at least 17 had died. There were a total of 570 infected in five Asian countries including China, and the U.S.
Jan 30 - the WHO reversed course and declared a global health emergency.
Jan 31 - Trump declare national public health emergency, and declared a China travel ban.

He isn't derisively referring to the virus, but the Chinese government for blaming it on the U.S military and government. So yeah, what the hell is he doing defending the U.S. by reminding everyone where the virus came from, and who hid it from the world while they seeded the globe with it. Left wing media, who called it the China Coronavirus, Chinese Coronavirus, and Wuhan Coronavirus - before and after being name COViD-19, didn't take offense to the terms until the sensitive transauthoritarian CCP began carping about xenophobia and "racism". Having received its marching orders the left began goose-stepping and turned on their president even as he defended the nation. Shameless.

Now you're waging a self-serving, sophistic argument, that Trump didn't have to listen to the same "experts" the left said he should listen to. He didn't need to be told that and did what ANY president would have done; have the CDC lead and advise. They did neither well. Even into early Mar. state labs were waiting on CDC to make good on replacement kits.

We can talk about 8 years of weakness.

And you don't deconstruct decades of regulatory and bureaucratic slothfulness overnight, but that's damn near what he did. The "experts" didn't produce a partnership that by next week will have seen 5 million or more kits ship, and capacity for millions per week by end of March. Trump did that.

You continue witching about the minutiae of when he misspeaks or loosely phrases things, then turns the mic over to the "experts" for the granularity. And God knows he should stop trying to keep the populace from becoming quivering masses of jelly by encouraging them.
 
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#62
#62
tvolsfan said:
I don't, but they, along with Trump, are probably the main people spreading the conspiracy. I'm willing to be the overwhelming majority of people who believe the deep state conspiracy listen to at least one of these three consistently and believe most of what they say.
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I believe in deep state in as far as the government protecting its own , and its policies . Written or unwritten . I believed Chuck Schumer when he said ..”the intelligence community had 6 ways from Sunday at getting back at you “ . I believe Trump was / is a threat to the old guard and the way they always conducted business. Just seems logical to me .
 
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#63
#63
tvolsfan said:
Uh, none of that is proof of a deep state. In fact, the horowitz report found no evidence of bias.
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Geez man, what evasive nonsense. I didn't say it was proof of deep state, but gave you two certainties;
A) Viewed Trump as such an affront to the office - or threat to them and/or the country - that they took it upon themselves to destroy his candidacy and then presidency?
B) Convinced themselves through a series of events consisting mostly of bias confirmation and based upon a oppo research fantasy, that Trump actually was a Russian conspiracist and then set out to destroy his candidacy and presidency?

In the first case, at least there's some competency to go with the corruption. That faint glimmer of redemption is lost in the alternative case; they're not only corrupt but too stupid not to swallow Russian propaganda paid for by an opposing political campaign.

You were unhappy with that; a glorified diarrhea of right wing buzz words.

The words of IG Horowitz, and two presiding judges of the FISA court wholly support my argument. And this is your reply? Why bother?

You may call it what you wish. At best it is incompetent corruption. And that's not quite what Horowitz said:
We did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation influenced the decisions to open the four individual investigations. That is not the same as not suspecting bias but simply means, as I stated, no one admitted to bias.

Sen. Josh Hawley “Was it your conclusion that political bias did not affect any part of the Page investigation, any part of Crossfire Hurricane?”
“We did not reach that conclusion,” Horowitz responded.
 
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#64
#64
NCFisher said:
Geez man, what evasive nonsense. I didn't say it was proof of deep state, but gave you two certainties;
A) Viewed Trump as such an affront to the office - or threat to them and/or the country - that they took it upon themselves to destroy his candidacy and then presidency?
B) Convinced themselves through a series of events consisting mostly of bias confirmation and based upon a oppo research fantasy, that Trump actually was a Russian conspiracist and then set out to destroy his candidacy and
Click to expand...

Neither of those are remotely certainties. These are conspiracy theories.
 
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#68
#68
tvolsfan said:
Neither of those are certainties. At all.
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What's the alternative? Horowitz documented repeated omission of exculpating evidence and falsifying the FISA request. Two judges have condemned the FBI applications and therefore the warrant AND resulting investigation, INVALID. You can be a partisan but don't be a dishonest cretin or you've nothing left except your donkey flag.

So, what's the alternative? Contrary to what the left and FBI leaks told us, Horowitz found:

We concluded that the Crossfire Hurricane team's receipt of Steele's election
reporting on September 19, 2016, played a central and essential role in the
decision by FBI OGC to support the request for FISA surveillance targeting Carter
Page, as well as the Department's ultimate decision to seek the FISA order. In
particular, the OGC Unit Chief told us that she thought probable cause was a "close
call" when the team first proposed seeking a FISA in mid-August and separately
when she discussed the idea with 01 around the same time. She said that it was
the Steele reporting received in September, concerning Page's alleged activities
with Russian officials in the summer of 2016, that "pushed it over" the line in terms
of establishing probable cause that Page was acting in concert with Russian
officials. The OGC Unit Chief's testimony was consistent with the testimony of the
01 Unit Chief who told us that the Steele reporting was "what kind of pushed it over
the line" in terms of the FBI being ready to pursue FISA authority targeting Page."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tuesday, Attorney General William Barr told NBC News that “in January (2017), after the election, the entire case collapsed when the principal source says ‘I never told — I never told Steele this stuff and this was also speculation and I have zero information to support this stuff.’ At that point, when their entire case collapsed, what do they do? They kept on investigating the president well into his administration, after the case collapsed.”

Barr continued, “But here to me is the damning thing: They not only didn’t tell the court that what they had been relying on was completely, you know, rubbish, they actually started putting in things to bolster this Steele report by saying, ‘we talked to the sources and they appeared to be truthful,’ but they don’t inform the court that what they’re truthful about is that the dossier is false.”

Barr is echoing exactly what FISC judge Collyer - angry because she presided over some of the invalid warrants - and current FISC judge Boasberg stated.
No unverified, rubbish dossier, no Mueller investigation. Something propelled this garbage to the FISA court.

What's the alternative, tvols??
 
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#69
#69
NCFisher said:
What's the alternative? Horowitz documented repeated omission of exculpating evidence and falsifying the FISA request. Two judges have condemned the FBI applications and therefore the warrant AND resulting investigation, INVALID. You can be a partisan but don't be a dishonest cretin or you've nothing left except your donkey flag.

So, what's the alternative? Contrary to what the left and FBI leaks told us, Horowitz found:

We concluded that the Crossfire Hurricane team's receipt of Steele's election
reporting on September 19, 2016, played a central and essential role in the
decision by FBI OGC to support the request for FISA surveillance targeting Carter
Page, as well as the Department's ultimate decision to seek the FISA order. In
particular, the OGC Unit Chief told us that she thought probable cause was a "close
call" when the team first proposed seeking a FISA in mid-August and separately
when she discussed the idea with 01 around the same time. She said that it was
the Steele reporting received in September, concerning Page's alleged activities
with Russian officials in the summer of 2016, that "pushed it over" the line in terms
of establishing probable cause that Page was acting in concert with Russian
officials. The OGC Unit Chief's testimony was consistent with the testimony of the
01 Unit Chief who told us that the Steele reporting was "what kind of pushed it over
the line" in terms of the FBI being ready to pursue FISA authority targeting Page."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tuesday, Attorney General William Barr told NBC News that “in January (2017), after the election, the entire case collapsed when the principal source says ‘I never told — I never told Steele this stuff and this was also speculation and I have zero information to support this stuff.’ At that point, when their entire case collapsed, what do they do? They kept on investigating the president well into his administration, after the case collapsed.”

Barr continued, “But here to me is the damning thing: They not only didn’t tell the court that what they had been relying on was completely, you know, rubbish, they actually started putting in things to bolster this Steele report by saying, ‘we talked to the sources and they appeared to be truthful,’ but they don’t inform the court that what they’re truthful about is that the dossier is false.”

Barr is echoing exactly what FISC judge Collyer - angry because she presided over some of the invalid warrants - and current FISC judge Boasberg stated.
No unverified, rubbish dossier, no Mueller investigation. Something propelled this garbage to the FISA court.

What's the alternative, tvols??
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I’m not sure why you think that this equates to “deep state trying to steal the election from Trump.” You are selectively choosing the “evidence” you want and omitting anything else. Again, that same report you’re citing also was clear about not finding evidence of bias against Trump as a motivator in starting the investigation.
 
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#71
#71
tvolsfan said:
I’m not sure why you think that this equates to “deep state trying to steal the election from Trump.” You are selectively choosing the “evidence” you want and omitting anything else. Again, that same report you’re citing also was clear about not finding evidence of bias against Trump as a motivator in starting the investigation.
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I demonstrated gross, inexplicable malfeasance by the FBI in the pursuit of Trump, via processes and warrant applications we know to untruthful, misleading, and outright fabrication.

Nonsense; what about the two FISC judges declarations are confusing? Their succinct, summary declarations trump 400+ pages of Mueller nonsense because THEY are the arbiters of the FISA domain. Do you even know that everyone associated with the investigation are now BARRED from any activity regarding FISA applications? Of course you didn't.

And I've posted everything Horowitz said about bias in the last reply, so stop acting as though I'm leaving something out; you're either being dishonest or inattentive.

The fact is that regardless of how they arrived at the decision to go after Trump - unfit/unworthy of the office, or by convincing themselves with shiddy evidence - the methods they used to do so were INVALID, and therefore the investigations INVALID. The Mueller probe should have never occurred; since it did he should have ended it within a week of being appointed.

I hope the next time government decides to screw someone over, threaten their wife, children, family, friends, and drive them into poverty, that they do it to people like you. Then you can tell us what great guys they all are.
 
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#72
#72
NCFisher said:
I demonstrated gross, inexplicable malfeasance by the FBI in the pursuit of Trump, via processes and warrant applications we know to untruthful, misleading, and outright fabrication.

Nonsense; what about the two FISC judges declarations are confusing? Their succinct, summary declarations trump 400+ pages of Mueller nonsense because THEY are the arbiters of the FISA domain. Do you even know that everyone associated with the investigation are now BARRED from any activity regarding FISA applications? Of course you didn't.

And I've posted everything Horowitz said about bias in the last reply, so stop acting as though I'm leaving something out; you're either being dishonest or inattentive.

The fact is that regardless of how they arrived at the decision to go after Trump - unfit/unworthy of the office, or by convincing themselves with shiddy evidence - the methods they used to do so were INVALID, and therefore the investigations INVALID. The Mueller probe should have never occurred; since it did he should have ended it within a week of being appointed.
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Again, no part of this proves a deep state conspiracy, and certainly not that they were trying to destroy his campaign. I'm going to ignore the softball about a Trump supporter whining about improper investigations for now.

I hope the next time government decides to screw someone over, threaten their wife, children, family, friends, and drive them into poverty, that they do it to people like you. Then you can tell us what great guys they all are.
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I think your emotions may be getting the best of you.
 
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#74
#74
tvolsfan said:
You may not understand the term "cult." You don't get to just throw out false equivalencies. Trump is the one displaying the behavior of a cult leader.
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And you are a member of the CNN/MSNBC cult, along with that collection of freaks and misfits they have on the air..
 
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