The Impeachment Thread

#29,626
#29,626
volinbham said:
Most people haven't lost their minds like you. Most people whether in favor or opposed to Trump haven't imagined him to be the monster that fringers like you have (or fringers that believe him to be the greatest POTUS ever). The vast middle isn't obsessed
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Which is exactly my point. America has failed itself to the degree to which it has normalized Trump. Complicity is often the worst of all responses.
 
#29,628
#29,628
luthervol said:
Which is exactly my point. America has failed itself to the degree to which it has normalized Trump. Complicity is often the worst of all responses.
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America has failed because it hasn't become obsessed like you - that's some awesome rationalization. First rate; kudos

Travis Bickle worthy
 
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#29,629
#29,629
volinbham said:
agree. I'm pretty sure they floated the idea to the Ukraine but I'm also betting they were going to release the aid in any event.

Not impeachable IMHO. The majority of the country agrees.
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We will never know when the military aid to the Ukraine would have been released without the whistleblower complaint being filed on August 12th. That clearly did throw a wrench into some plans. One thing is certain, without the whistleblower complaint being filed when it was, President Zelensky of the Ukraine would have done an interview with Fareed Zakaria on CNN in either late August or early September and he would have announced that he was opening an investigation into the Bidens.

As for the last line "Not impeachable IMHO. The majority of the country agrees." That depends on which poll you are looking at. The latest Fox News poll has support for impeachment at 50%, with only 41% opposed.
 
#29,630
#29,630
0nelilreb said:
You keep saying that and I keep watching and listening to the ones you don’t think are horrible trying to take my rights away . I’m thinking your idea of America’s future and what others idea of it is , just isn’t the same . That’s why I always remind you about perception .
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You miss the point entirely. I'll take someone with Trump's policies who is not a horrendously despicable person and silently ride it out.
 
#29,632
#29,632
BowlBrother85 said:
We will never know when the military aid to the Ukraine would have been released without the whistleblower complaint being filed on August 12th. That clearly did throw a wrench into some plans. One thing is certain, without the whistleblower complaint being filed when it was, President Zelensky of the Ukraine would have done an interview with Fareed Zakaria on CNN in either late August or early September and he would have announced that he was opening an investigation into the Bidens.

As for the last line "Not impeachable IMHO. The majority of the country agrees." That depends on which poll you are looking at. The latest Fox News poll has support for impeachment at 50%, with only 41% opposed.
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50% isn't a majority. It has never passed 50% and the polls since the Horowitz testimony are in the mid 40s.

Zelensky has also said repeatedly he felt no pressure. Possible Trump asked and Zelensky never took it as a requirement.

As for impeachable I'm reminded of when they were trying to pass Obamacare and Sebelius "asked" health companies to "contribute" to fund that would advertise the benefits of Obamacare. The head of the agency that regulates health companies suggested they should contribute to the cause. Shady as hell but not worth hearings and seeing if Team Obama was on board. Still, it could be characterized as extortion. This situation is on par IMHO.
 
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#29,633
#29,633
Velo Vol said:
Wasn't there starting to be pushback in Congress in early September, independent from the complaint?
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There were questions being raised in Congress as to why there was a hold, and those questions were going unanswered. It didn't look nefarious though, until the whistleblower complaint was disclosed.
 
#29,634
#29,634
luthervol said:
Paul Harvey would go on to say that Sonland went on to testify that on Sept. 9th, after he knew he had been busted, Trump said he wanted no quid pro quo and that Sonland would refuse to answer if he thought Trump actually believed that when he said it.
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He would say Sondland said his perception was it was a quid pro quo which means nothing because it’s simply his opinion
 
#29,635
#29,635
volinbham said:
50% isn't a majority. It has never passed 50% and the polls since the Horowitz testimony are in the mid 40s.

Zelensky has also said repeatedly he felt no pressure. Possible Trump asked and Zelensky never took it as a requirement.

As for impeachable I'm reminded of when they were trying to pass Obamacare and Sebelius "asked" health companies to "contribute" to fund that would advertise the benefits of Obamacare. The head of the agency that regulates health companies suggested they should contribute to the cause. Shady as hell but not worth hearings and seeing if Team Obama was on board. Still, it could be characterized as extortion. This situation is on par IMHO.
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50% is a majority among the people who expressed an opinion one way or the other. Once again, Zelensky has no choice but to say whatever Trump wants him to say, while Trump is still in office. I don't think Zelensky was going to insert himself into American politics out of his own choice. Zelensky was going on CNN and announce an investigation into the Bidens because that is what Trump wanted him to do, and that is what would get the hold on the aid lifted.
 
#29,636
#29,636
If I understand correctly the House took testimony from the office responsible for releasing funds and they never released any of that testimony nor did they include it the impeachment report. Wonder what they found?
 
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#29,639
#29,639
BowlBrother85 said:
50% is a majority among the people who expressed an opinion one way or the other. Once again, Zelensky has no choice but to say whatever Trump wants him to say, while Trump is still in office. I don't think Zelensky was going to insert himself into American politics out of his own choice. Zelensky was going on CNN and announce an investigation into the Bidens because that is what Trump wanted him to do, and that is what would get the hold on the aid lifted.
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Not expressing an answer is still included. Since a poll is supposed to be a proxy for the mood of America then you can't say a majority support impeachment. Also the point is moot since more recent polls show not only a lower % supporting but "of those who expressed an opinion" (if that's the standard) then the "majority" opposes.

As for Zelensky we have to believe he felt pressure but chose to say he didn't - IOW we have to believe he's lying to support the claim. That's the problem with all this - it's all "feelings" and assumptions. If there was a smoking gun the Dems explicitly chose to not seek it by not challenging for testimony from Team Trump and really not trying to get Bolton in.

It's weak sauce. The "threats to democracy" and "we have to stop him from stealing the next election" and "he put our national security at risk" are all un-credible claims.
 
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#29,641
#29,641
volinbham said:
Not expressing an answer is still included. Since a poll is supposed to be a proxy for the mood of America then you can't say a majority support impeachment. Also the point is moot since more recent polls show not only a lower % supporting but "of those who expressed an opinion" (if that's the standard) then the "majority" opposes.

As for Zelensky we have to believe he felt pressure but chose to say he didn't - IOW we have to believe he's lying to support the claim. That's the problem with all this - it's all "feelings" and assumptions. If there was a smoking gun the Dems explicitly chose to not seek it by not challenging for testimony from Team Trump and really not trying to get Bolton in.

It's weak sauce. The "threats to democracy" and "we have to stop him from stealing the next election" and "he put our national security at risk" are all un-credible claims.
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Once again, that depends on which poll you are looking at. That is not true of the most recent Fox News poll. And it is not "un-credible" to believe that Trump leveraged military aid to the Ukraine against President Zelensky's willingness to perform a personal political favor for Donald Trump. That is what Gordon Sondland believed.
 
#29,643
#29,643
Velo Vol said:
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#29,647
#29,647
BowlBrother85 said:
Once again, that depends on which poll you are looking at. That is not true of the most recent Fox News poll.
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There have been 6 since then and 4 show against as the "majority" as you define it while the other 2 have a tie. Looking at them as representations of how people feel including neither for nor against (which is a legit position) NONE of them including the Fox poll have a majority for impeachment. You have to go back to October to find any above 50% and the highest I can find is 53%.

Impeachment is an extreme solution. When less than 1/2 the electorate (or even exactly 1/2) is for it that probably suggests it's a bad idea.
 
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#29,648
#29,648
BowlBrother85 said:
Once again, that depends on which poll you are looking at. That is not true of the most recent Fox News poll. And it is not "un-credible" to believe that Trump leveraged military aid to the Ukraine against President Zelensky's willingness to perform a personal political favor for Donald Trump. That is what Gordon Sondland believed.
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By all means then, we must remove the President because of what Sondland "believed" to be true. Maybe he should even face a firing squad?
 
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