Gun control debate (merged)

#9,776
#9,776
0nelilreb said:
So you and EL are on the same page , the end result outweighs the cost . Do you two feel the same way about voter IDs? Because sure some people won’t get to vote but in the end the cost is minimal compared to the result .
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It all depends on your end objective.
If your end objective is to get guns out of the hands of crazy people even if a few non-crazies will be temporarily inconvenienced you will view things differently than the person whose end objective is to make sure no one has their "right" to guns violated even if it means some crazy people keep their guns and kill some innocent people.

If your end objective is to make voting accessible to as many legal voters as possible even if it means there are a few illegal votes, you will view things differently than the person whose end objective is to make voting requirements such that the few illegal votes will be reduced but at the expense of many more legal votes.
 
#9,777
#9,777
luthervol said:
It all depends on your end objective.
If your end objective is to get guns out of the hands of crazy people even if a few non-crazies will be temporarily inconvenienced you will view things differently than the person whose end objective is to make sure no one has their "right" to guns violated even if it means some crazy people keep their guns and kill some innocent people.

If your end objective is to make voting accessible to as many legal voters as possible even if it means there are a few illegal votes, you will view things differently than the person whose end objective is to make voting requirements such that the few illegal votes will be reduced but at the expense of many more legal votes.
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#9,779
#9,779
evillawyer said:
Law enforcement makes a sh*t ton of mistakes. Some are major, some are minor. Some are correctable, some are not. Some can be compensated, some cannot.

Taking guns away for a few days is perhaps the bottom item on any reasonable person's list of regrettable mistakes made by cops. It pales in comparison to shooting unarmed people, false arrest, and civil forfeiture. Not even close.
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Having to engage an attorney and go to court to get back your own property taken needlessly is not something I consider a minor issue. The state will compensate this guy zero for its incompetence.
 
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#9,780
#9,780
DancingOutlaw said:
Having to engage an attorney and go to court to get back your own property taken needlessly is not something I consider a minor issue. The state will compensate this guy zero for its incompetence.
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So put a prevailing party attorney fee provision in the red flag law. If you got a good case a private attorney will take it because they know their fees will be paid.
 
#9,781
#9,781
Since it seems some folks have no issue with throwing due process out the window and it's fine to put the cart before the horse, because after all violating constitutional rights is just a little inconvenience, let's add a repercussions section to those red flag laws.

Anyone aiding in the falsification or misrepresentation of a red flag seizure immediately forfeits any license to practice they hold, pending the outcome of a review by the appropriate licensing board and can be held liable in any civil suit brought forward by the injured party.

Anyone complicit in enforcing a red flag law seizure involving an obvious case of mistaken identity is liable for all legal fees, lost wages and a civil monetary settlement awarded to the injured party.
 
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#9,782
#9,782
DynaLo said:
Since it seems some folks have no issue with throwing due process out the window and it's fine to put the cart before the horse, because after all violating constitutional rights is just a little inconvenience, let's add a repercussions section to those red flag laws.

Anyone aiding in the falsification or misrepresentation of a red flag seizure immediately forfeits any license to practice they hold, pending the outcome of a review by the appropriate licensing board and can be held liable in any civil suit brought forward by the injured party.

Anyone complicit in enforcing a red flag law seizure involving an obvious case of mistaken identity is liable for all legal fees, lost wages and a civil monetary settlement awarded to the injured party.
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Yeah, lawyers win again.
 
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#9,783
#9,783
luthervol said:
It all depends on your end objective.
If your end objective is to get guns out of the hands of crazy people even if a few non-crazies will be temporarily inconvenienced you will view things differently than the person whose end objective is to make sure no one has their "right" to guns violated even if it means some crazy people keep their guns and kill some innocent people.

If your end objective is to make voting accessible to as many legal voters as possible even if it means there are a few illegal votes, you will view things differently than the person whose end objective is to make voting requirements such that the few illegal votes will be reduced but at the expense of many more legal votes.
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I don't think the numbers of illegals voting is as low as you think. Your side absolutely doesn't want those numbers getting out.
 
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#9,784
#9,784
evillawyer said:
A damn good one, or so say my peers.

Do you know how many people are falsely arrested everyday in America and have their ACTUAL liberty deprived for days, weeks or months? That's much more serious than having your toys taken away. So yeah, not going to shed any tears for a guy's Rambo toys being mistakenly confiscated for a little while.
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Due process councilor. You know your freaking job. Denied. I have mentioned it but you never even address it. All you care about is the guns.

Unless you read more than I did, which is possible being down there if FL, what makes you think they were Rambo guns? He had a concealed carry permit. The government has interviewed him as much as you could want. And there ain't no M60 out there that can be concealed, so again you fall to false arguments to make your bad points.

The guy lost his rights. Rights. Multiple of them. I dont care about his guns, I care about his rights. They were taken away when the government messed up. No way you can look at this situation and be ok with it.

You fall to further over emotional false arguments about PTSD. I guess we can take away everyone's rights then. Who needs to vote. Who needs free speech? You have already said you are ok with him losing due process and the 2A on a government mistake.

Here is your slippery slope you said would never happen. And it happens just as we are starting down your trail of dehumanizing gun owners as less than people.
 
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#9,786
#9,786
evillawyer said:
Law enforcement makes a sh*t ton of mistakes. Some are major, some are minor. Some are correctable, some are not. Some can be compensated, some cannot.

Taking guns away for a few days is perhaps the bottom item on any reasonable person's list of regrettable mistakes made by cops. It pales in comparison to shooting unarmed people, false arrest, and civil forfeiture. Not even close.
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Right who needs their effing due process. Charged with murder. Just go ahead and lock them away. Who needs their day in court. Maybe this way we can finally get rid of you lawyers.
 
#9,787
#9,787
luthervol said:
That's like claiming that since an innocent man was once sent to jail we should never send anyone else to jail.
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Right, who cares about the guys rights. Cant even address the issue. "Terrible thing that should never have happened, but a necessary first step as we seek to strip away people's rights."

This is exactly why we cling so desperately to our rights, when there are so many willing to just dismiss them.
 
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#9,789
#9,789
azVolFan said:
I don't think the numbers of illegals voting is as low as you think. Your side absolutely doesn't want those numbers getting out.
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I think it is incredibly low, almost non-existent. I would love for the actual numbers to be known.
 
#9,790
#9,790
LouderVol said:
Right, who cares about the guys rights. Cant even address the issue. "Terrible thing that should never have happened, but a necessary first step as we seek to strip away people's rights."

This is exactly why we cling so desperately to our rights, when there are so many willing to just dismiss them.
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So you think a dangerously crazy person should be allowed to keep his guns.
This is exactly why the gun nuts are considered gun nuts and rational and reasonable people are so disgusted.
 
#9,791
#9,791
luthervol said:
So you think a dangerously crazy person should be allowed to keep his guns.
This is exactly why the gun nuts are considered gun nuts and rational and reasonable people are so disgusted.
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you added some words since yesterday ... “dangerously crazy “ that’s not how the red flag laws work , you should know this if you are advocating for them .
 
#9,796
#9,796
luthervol said:
I think dangerously crazy people should have there guns taken away.
Do you?
How about you @LouderVol?
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You skipped over the red flag laws and your stance changed from yesterday to include dangerously crazy . The problem is confiscating a right ( firearms ) based solely on somebody calling the local police and claiming you are crazy , dangerous , on meds that may or may not hinder your ability to own a firearm . Mind you this is all without you committing a crime , you just may possibly , could , potentially , someday , soon , or not .
 
#9,798
#9,798
0nelilreb said:
You skipped over the red flag laws and your stance changed from yesterday to include dangerously crazy . The problem is confiscating a right ( firearms ) based solely on somebody calling the local police and claiming you are crazy , dangerous , on meds that may or may not hinder your ability to own a firearm . Mind you this is all without you committing a crime , you just may possibly , could , potentially , someday , soon , or not .
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You still didn't answer the question.
Do you think a dangerously crazy person should have their guns taken from them?
 
#9,799
#9,799
0nelilreb said:
We won’t know until everyone get a voter ID card backed up by a federal background check . We can never be too safe am I right ?
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Let's also do a DNA test to make sure we have no Martians or other space aliens voting. We can never be too safe an I right?
 
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