Mass Shooting in Ohio

#128
#128
The stupidity in this is either side trying to place blame on political figures. People are ultimately responsible for their own actions. Trying to blame the left for this is like the left trying to blame Trump for El Paso. It's stupid and pointless and does nothing to address the real issue, which is, above all else, mental illness. There should be some gun control issues discussed as well, like how to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, but ultimately, we have to find ways to target these unbalanced individuals BEFORE they do these kinds of things.
 
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#129
#129
evillawyer said:
I know you guys want this to be analogous to the El Paso shooter, but it's not. The victims in Ohio do not appear to have been targeted for political reasons, let alone political reasons associated with Sanders and Warren. The opposite is true in El Paso. The victims were clearly targeted because he hated Hispanics and thought they were invading Texas. These are similar to what Trump has said.
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Don't be stupid. Stop trying to blame everything on Trump. He may be a pompous ass, but the El Paso shooting is mot his fault. Playing the blame game is dishonest and distracts from the real issue.
 
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#130
#130
It's a slippery slope keeping guns out of the hands of the "unbalanced". How is it decided and by whom? When the Left is in charge then no guns for Trump, Bush, etc. (or their supporters). When the Right is in charge, then AOC, Bernie, Pocahontas, etc. don't get to own.

Also, many people needing mental health treatment will avoid it when they risk giving up some of their freedoms.

El Paso is the 10th US mass shooting with 20 or more killed. How many millions of citizens have been killed by their governments that didn't allow them the right to bear arms?
 
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#131
#131
Weezer said:
Don't be stupid. Stop trying to blame everything on Trump. He may be a pompous ass, but the El Paso shooting is mot his fault. Playing the blame game is dishonest and distracts from the real issue.
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It is a bridge too far, to say that the shooting itself is Donald Trump's "fault" but it is completely relevant to point out that the shooter's (Patrick Crusius, age 21) "manifesto" echoes the language used at Donald Trump's rallies and in Donald Trump's tweets.

At campaign rallies before last year's midterm elections, President Trump repeatedly warned that America was under attack by immigrants heading for the border (in what was described as a "caravan" by Fox News pundits and conservatives blogs at the time). "You look at what is marching up, that is an invasion!" Trump declared at one rally. "That is an invasion!"

Nine months later, a 21 year old man named Patrick Crusius, killed 20 people in a Walmart in El Paso, Texas after writing a "manifesto" railing against immigration and announcing that "this attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas". While the gunman (Crusius) also writes that his views "predate Trump" - as if anticipating that his actions could cause political trouble for the President - his language in this "manifesto" is very similar in substance and tone to what one would hear at Trump rallies or read in a typical Trump tweet on immigration. It can't be denied that Trump engages in fear mongering on both Twitter and in his campaign rallies. Trump began his campaign in June of 2015 by calling Hispanic migrants to the United States "rapists and murderers".

Is Trump responsible for Patrick Crusius' actions? Of course not. Only Patrick Crusius is responsible. Is Trump responsible for stoking hatred and intolerance toward Hispanic migrants in this country, which has included the tactic of fear-mongering and scapegoating? Absolutely.
 
#133
#133
Thunder Good-Oil said:
Who is enabling the "invasion" by promoting sanctuary cities, amnesty for those that can get in, and gift them with free stuff?
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The word "invasion" comes with the implication of either aggressiveness or hostility (or both). It is a keyword to arouse anger/fear. Who has been using that word when describing Hispanic immigration into the United States... and why? Trump doesn't use such language when describing European immigration?
 
#134
#134
Mick said:
There are always 2 exits.
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You are in a movie theater middle section. Gunman enters at bottom and is firing. You got no gun and he is standing at the bottom firing as he slowly walks up the aisle. Where is your exit plan Sparky? Or is this a movie where you can suddenly outrun bullets?

Because while you are figuring out how to suddenly go matrix style or turn your popcorn and drink into a weapon and shield, I am dropping down low behind a seat and waiting for a clear shot to kill the azz hat.

And no, not every scenario has an exit.
 
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#135
#135
BowlBrother85 said:
The word "invasion" comes with the implication of either aggressiveness or hostility (or both). It is a keyword to arouse anger/fear. Who has been using that word when describing Hispanic immigration into the United States... and why? Trump doesn't use such language when describing European immigration?
Click to expand...
Because European Immigration is done legally?
 
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#136
#136
Weezer said:
The stupidity in this is either side trying to place blame on political figures. People are ultimately responsible for their own actions. Trying to blame the left for this is like the left trying to blame Trump for El Paso. It's stupid and pointless and does nothing to address the real issue, which is, above all else, mental illness. There should be some gun control issues discussed as well, like how to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, but ultimately, we have to find ways to target these unbalanced individuals BEFORE they do these kinds of things.
Click to expand...
I will start by saying that although the El Paso, Texas shooter, Patrick Crusius, could be a sociopath, there is nothing to indicate that he suffers from a major disorder of mind and brain. He simply exercises the sort of twisted logic that one would expect to find in someone that is extremely bigoted and intolerant toward a particular group of people (in this case, Hispanics). Not all irrational people are necessarily mentally ill. We should learn more in the coming days about his history.

Now, having said that, if the subject of mass shootings should turn to the focus of keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill? I am reminded of this legislation:

On Tuesday February 28, 2017, President Donald Trump quietly signed a bill into law that rolled back an Obama-era regulation that made it harder for people with mental illnesses to purchase a gun. This rule, which was finalized in December of 2016, added people who were receiving Social Security checks for mental illnesses deemed unfit to handle their own financial affairs to the national background check database. Had the rule been allowed to fully take effect, the Obama administration estimated that it would have added about 75,000 names to that database.

President Barack Obama recommended the now-nullified (by President Donald Trump) regulation in a 2013 memo following the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, which left 26 people dead (including 20 children). This measure's sole purpose was to block people with severe mental illnesses from being able to legally purchase guns. However, the NRA opposed this measure... and predictably, Donald Trump caved in to their wishes and revoked the rule.
 
#138
#138
37L1 said:
Because European Immigration is done legally?
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That is so ignorant and naive.

********************

*Excerpt*

The Real Illegal Immigration Crisis Isn't on the Southern Border by Krishnadev Calamur from "The Atlantic" on April 19, 2019

Focusing on asylum seekers who cross land borders ignores the real problem: people who overstay their visas.

If curbing illegal immigration is the goal, as politicians in the United States and Europe argue, then no wall or border fence will stop the West's largest source of such immigrants. They are not the subject of televised debates or of long stories highlighting their plight. Many are invisible, making them hard to count, and little attention is paid to them. Yet focusing on them might yield better results than focusing on those fleeing violence and persecution.

The group in question? Visa overstays.

These immigrants, who enter countries legally on student, tourist, or work visas and then stay past their visa's expiration date, are often overlooked in the discussion of illegal immigration. In fact, Trump has never mentioned them at all. But in the past 10 years, visa overstays in the United States have outnumbered border crossings by a ratio of about 2 to 1, according to Robert Warren, who was for a decade the director of the statistics division at the agency that has since been renamed U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services...

Still, none of this has translated into visa overstays becoming a source of anti-immigrant sentiment. Immigration, especially in the U.S. and Europe, has become shorthand for the perceived uncontrolled flow of immigrants across land borders. In the U.S., Donald Trump has railed against "Mexicans" (though illegal border crossings by Mexican nationals are at a multi-decade low) and the thousands of people form Central America's Northern Triangle (Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador) who are seeking asylum. Could this have something to do with where the people who are overstaying their visa came from? Possibly, but let's examine that, shall we? According to the Center for Immigration Studies, visa overstays are broken down as follows:

  • France and the United Kingdom were the countries with the largest number of Visa Waiver Program (VWP) overstays in 2017, with 16,456 and 25,694 respectively.
  • Portugal, Hungary, and Greece have the highest overstay rates of all the VWP countries, and have been required to launch public information programs to remind their citizens to comply with our laws.
  • The highest number of "other" categories of visa overstay rates of all the VWP countries in 2017, consisting primarily of guest-worker visas, came from India (9,568) and the Philippines (7,075). Together, they accounted for 36% of the category total.
  • The category with the highest overstay rate is student and exchange visa overstays. They have twice the overstay rate of most other categories. About 40% of the student/exchange visa overstays in 2017 were from just four countries: China, Saudi Arabia, India and South Korea.
  • About 20% of the visa overstays of the 302,000 B visa overstays in 2017 were from just two countries: Brazil (33,759) and Venezuela (30,424). These are in the regular short-term visitor category.

********************

Notice that you do not see Mexico or any Central American countries (El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica, Belize) mentioned on the visa overstay list... So, why doesn't Trump ever mention the problem of visa overstays? I have my own theory, but why don't one of you Trump apologists out there tell me?
 
#139
#139
evillawyer said:
I know you guys want this to be analogous to the El Paso shooter, but it's not. The victims in Ohio do not appear to have been targeted for political reasons, let alone political reasons associated with Sanders and Warren. The opposite is true in El Paso. The victims were clearly targeted because he hated Hispanics and thought they were invading Texas. These are similar to what Trump has said.
Click to expand...
Stop. He asked them what political affiliation they were?
 
#140
#140
Thunder Good-Oil said:
It's a slippery slope keeping guns out of the hands of the "unbalanced". How is it decided and by whom? When the Left is in charge then no guns for Trump, Bush, etc. (or their supporters). When the Right is in charge, then AOC, Bernie, Pocahontas, etc. don't get to own.

Also, many people needing mental health treatment will avoid it when they risk giving up some of their freedoms.

El Paso is the 10th US mass shooting with 20 or more killed. How many millions of citizens have been killed by their governments that didn't allow them the right to bear arms?
Click to expand...
I think looking at a medicine list especially for a young adult is a good start.
 
#143
#143
BowlBrother85 said:
That is so ignorant and naive.

********************

*Excerpt*

The Real Illegal Immigration Crisis Isn't on the Southern Border by Krishnadev Calamur from "The Atlantic" on April 19, 2019

Focusing on asylum seekers who cross land borders ignores the real problem: people who overstay their visas.

If curbing illegal immigration is the goal, as politicians in the United States and Europe argue, then no wall or border fence will stop the West's largest source of such immigrants. They are not the subject of televised debates or of long stories highlighting their plight. Many are invisible, making them hard to count, and little attention is paid to them. Yet focusing on them might yield better results than focusing on those fleeing violence and persecution.

The group in question? Visa overstays.

These immigrants, who enter countries legally on student, tourist, or work visas and then stay past their visa's expiration date, are often overlooked in the discussion of illegal immigration. In fact, Trump has never mentioned them at all. But in the past 10 years, visa overstays in the United States have outnumbered border crossings by a ratio of about 2 to 1, according to Robert Warren, who was for a decade the director of the statistics division at the agency that has since been renamed U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services...

Still, none of this has translated into visa overstays becoming a source of anti-immigrant sentiment. Immigration, especially in the U.S. and Europe, has become shorthand for the perceived uncontrolled flow of immigrants across land borders. In the U.S., Donald Trump has railed against "Mexicans" (though illegal border crossings by Mexican nationals are at a multi-decade low) and the thousands of people form Central America's Northern Triangle (Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador) who are seeking asylum. Could this have something to do with where the people who are overstaying their visa came from? Possibly, but let's examine that, shall we? According to the Center for Immigration Studies, visa overstays are broken down as follows:

  • France and the United Kingdom were the countries with the largest number of Visa Waiver Program (VWP) overstays in 2017, with 16,456 and 25,694 respectively.
  • Portugal, Hungary, and Greece have the highest overstay rates of all the VWP countries, and have been required to launch public information programs to remind their citizens to comply with our laws.
  • The highest number of "other" categories of visa overstay rates of all the VWP countries in 2017, consisting primarily of guest-worker visas, came from India (9,568) and the Philippines (7,075). Together, they accounted for 36% of the category total.
  • The category with the highest overstay rate is student and exchange visa overstays. They have twice the overstay rate of most other categories. About 40% of the student/exchange visa overstays in 2017 were from just four countries: China, Saudi Arabia, India and South Korea.
  • About 20% of the visa overstays of the 302,000 B visa overstays in 2017 were from just two countries: Brazil (33,759) and Venezuela (30,424). These are in the regular short-term visitor category.

********************

Notice that you do not see Mexico or any Central American countries (El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica, Belize) mentioned on the visa overstay list... So, why doesn't Trump ever mention the problem of visa overstays? I have my own theory, but why don't one of you Trump apologists out there tell me?
Click to expand...
There aren't 20 million illegal European immigrants.

Those who have over stayed their visas, we know who they are and they did at least comply with our laws initially. Illegal border crossers who avoid the system and the recent migrant caravans who turn themselves in only to disappear forever because they never show for their asylum hearings, do we really know who they are and where they are? It's a freakin joke and the joke is on us.

Your argument is ignorant, naive and disingenuous, trying to make this about race when it is about numbers who are disregarding our nations laws. You are pointing at a problem, "look over here", which is minuscule when compared to what Trump is trying to fix. The visa overstays can be rectified a whole lot easier than mass immigration encouraged and abetted by those that have an agenda that does not benefit our nation.

All should respect our immigation laws, no matter where they come from.
 
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#144
#144
37L1 said:
There aren't 20 million illegal European immigrants.
Click to expand...
I didn't say that they were all from Europe. Read the full post before responding. You clearly didn't. The point I made is that the biggest problem we have with illegal immigration isn't border crossings. It's people who have overstayed their visa. And the origin countries of people overstaying their visa are detailed in that post... they do not include Mexicans or people from the Central American countries. Trump never talks about that problem. He has done nothing to fix it.
 
#145
#145
BowlBrother85 said:
I didn't say that they were all from Europe. Read the full post before responding. You clearly didn't. The point I made is that the biggest problem we have with illegal immigration isn't border crossings. It's people who have overstayed their visa. And the origin countries of people overstaying their visa are detailed in that post... they do not include Mexicans or people from the Central American countries. Trump never talks about that problem. He Every piece of sh** politician in D.C. has done nothing to fix it.
Click to expand...
 
#146
#146
BowlBrother85 said:
I didn't say that they were all from Europe. Read the full post before responding. You clearly didn't. The point I made is that the biggest problem we have with illegal immigration isn't border crossings. It's people who have overstayed their visa. And the origin countries of people overstaying their visa are detailed in that post... they do not include Mexicans or people from the Central American countries. Trump never talks about that problem. He has done nothing to fix it.
Click to expand...
Read my edit.

Here, so you don't have to look for it:

Those who have over stayed their visas, we know who they are and they did at least comply with our laws initially. Illegal border crossers who avoid the system and the recent migrant caravans who turn themselves in only to disappear forever because they never show for their asylum hearings, do we really know who they are and where they are? It's a freakin joke and the joke is on us.

Your argument is ignorant, naive and disingenuous, trying to make this about race when it is about numbers who are disregarding our nations laws. You are pointing at a problem, "look over here", which is minuscule when compared to what Trump is trying to fix. The visa overstays can be rectified a whole lot easier than mass immigration encouraged and abetted by those that have an agenda that does not benefit our nation.

All should respect our immigation laws, no matter where they come from.
 
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#147
#147
BowlBrother85 said:
That is so ignorant and naive.

********************

*Excerpt*

The Real Illegal Immigration Crisis Isn't on the Southern Border by Krishnadev Calamur from "The Atlantic" on April 19, 2019

Focusing on asylum seekers who cross land borders ignores the real problem: people who overstay their visas.


If curbing illegal immigration is the goal, as politicians in the United States and Europe argue, then no wall or border fence will stop the West's largest source of such immigrants. They are not the subject of televised debates or of long stories highlighting their plight. Many are invisible, making them hard to count, and little attention is paid to them. Yet focusing on them might yield better results than focusing on those fleeing violence and persecution.

The group in question? Visa overstays.

These immigrants, who enter countries legally on student, tourist, or work visas and then stay past their visa's expiration date, are often overlooked in the discussion of illegal immigration. In fact, Trump has never mentioned them at all. But in the past 10 years, visa overstays in the United States have outnumbered border crossings by a ratio of about 2 to 1, according to Robert Warren, who was for a decade the director of the statistics division at the agency that has since been renamed U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services...

Still, none of this has translated into visa overstays becoming a source of anti-immigrant sentiment. Immigration, especially in the U.S. and Europe, has become shorthand for the perceived uncontrolled flow of immigrants across land borders. In the U.S., Donald Trump has railed against "Mexicans" (though illegal border crossings by Mexican nationals are at a multi-decade low) and the thousands of people form Central America's Northern Triangle (Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador) who are seeking asylum. Could this have something to do with where the people who are overstaying their visa came from? Possibly, but let's examine that, shall we? According to the Center for Immigration Studies, visa overstays are broken down as follows:

  • France and the United Kingdom were the countries with the largest number of Visa Waiver Program (VWP) overstays in 2017, with 16,456 and 25,694 respectively.
  • Portugal, Hungary, and Greece have the highest overstay rates of all the VWP countries, and have been required to launch public information programs to remind their citizens to comply with our laws.
  • The highest number of "other" categories of visa overstay rates of all the VWP countries in 2017, consisting primarily of guest-worker visas, came from India (9,568) and the Philippines (7,075). Together, they accounted for 36% of the category total.
  • The category with the highest overstay rate is student and exchange visa overstays. They have twice the overstay rate of most other categories. About 40% of the student/exchange visa overstays in 2017 were from just four countries: China, Saudi Arabia, India and South Korea.
  • About 20% of the visa overstays of the 302,000 B visa overstays in 2017 were from just two countries: Brazil (33,759) and Venezuela (30,424). These are in the regular short-term visitor category.

********************

Notice that you do not see Mexico or any Central American countries (El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica, Belize) mentioned on the visa overstay list... So, why doesn't Trump ever mention the problem of visa overstays? I have my own theory, but why don't one of you Trump apologists out there tell me?
Click to expand...

Let's say there is an issue to be made of Visa overstays. Do you not think there is still not a rather profound distinction to be made between someone that did in fact enter the country, with all the attendant vetting that goes with that process, and someone here illegally from the start?
 
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#149
#149
BowlBrother85 said:
I didn't say that they were all from Europe. Read the full post before responding. You clearly didn't. The point I made is that the biggest problem we have with illegal immigration isn't border crossings. It's people who have overstayed their visa. And the origin countries of people overstaying their visa are detailed in that post... they do not include Mexicans or people from the Central American countries. Trump never talks about that problem. He has done nothing to fix it.
Click to expand...
In my area of the country our issue is illegal Latinos. Not sure I've ever seen a large group or neighborhood with illegal Europeans or any others on your visa list.
 
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#150
#150
tennvols77 said:
At least this loser whacko died unlike the El Paso whacko. Sad neither could be found out earlier before they committed to being mass murderers.
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Considering this guy was kicked out of school for a kill list tells me red flags weren't addressed by our agencies. You get kicked out of shcool for this and you should automatically fail a background check to buy any weapon, not just an AK47. Did the local police alert higher agencies? Was he put on a watch list?

Fix these types of red flags by allowing agencies to share information and 95% of this is fixed.
 
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