Recruiting Forum Football Talk [RIP 9.3.2019]

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#154,751
#154,751
Juco article from VQ

Jones and Dooley both had plenty of shortcomings, but one common denominator was in the abject failure of both to either identify or develop junior college talent.

That’s not to say—by any means at all—that junior college recruiting in either instance is the reason that Tennessee’s program has fallen from the top of the SEC East to the bottom. Nevertheless, it’s interesting to see how both head coaches came up so miserably short in this department.

In the eight signing classes from rom 2010 through 2017 Dooley and Jones signed a combined 18 recruits from the junior college ranks. The ‘hit rate’ on those 18 players was abysmal. Jones’ success with junior college recruits was particularly horrendous.

Here’s the list.

(** indicates players who transferred down from four year programs)



2010

Dave Clark

Michael Rivera

Matt Sims**



2011

Byron Moore**

Izauea Lanier

Mo Couch



2012

Cordarrlle Patterson

Darrington Sentimore**



2013

Woody Quinn

Riyahd Jones



2014

Owen Williams

Chris Weathered

Dontavious Blair



2015

Alvin Kamara**



2016

Jonathan Kongbo

D.J. Henderson

Alexis Johnson

Jeff George



2017

None.



That’s a lot of misses.

Remove Kamara, Sims and Byron Moore, who were all productive starters to one degree or another, and Tennessee got very little production from those 18 signees.

Cordarrelle Patterson was a superstar in his one year on campus. Mychal Rivera was a productive starter who turned into an NFL tight end. In that regard Dooley was far more successful than Jones.

Again, the juco misses are hardly the only reason the Vols are where they are now, but it’s just one example of many of how the previous staff in particular fell so far behind the rest of the league.

When you recruit a junior college player the expectation is that you’re going to get immediate help. Getting a bona fide stud like Patterson is hardly the usual expectation, but you hope to get someone that can at least contribute in the two deep.

Phillip Fulmer excelled at this during his tenure with guys like Jesse Mahelona, Julian Battle and Gibril Wilson; three players who were drafted after two years on campus.

Other than Kamara, who was a five-star recruit in high school who everyone in the country wanted out of high school and junior college, Jones didn’t have a single junior college prospect drafted in the NFL.

More than that, of the 10 junior college players he signed in four years (none in 2017), no one even turned into a highly productive starter outside of Kamara.

Obviously, some of that is probably on the players themselves, but when the misses are so uniform across the board evaluation and development have to be called into question as well.

Kongbo and Blair were two of the most sought after junior college players in the country when Jones landed them. Neither lived up to the hype. Kongbo did turn himself into a starter under Jeremy Pruitt, but never came close to making the kind of impact that anyone hoped. Blair, the top rated junior college offensive lineman in the country when the Vols signed him, never even got on the field.

Chris Weathered wasn’t quite in the same class of those two in terms of rating, but he was another highly sought after junior college prospect that never met expectations.

The topic is a timely one because Pruitt and his staff are going to be leaning hard on two junior college prospects; Savion Williams and Darrell Middleton, to shore up a defensive front that’s woefully short of proven performers outside of Darrell Taylor.

If the Vols are going to compete in the SEC this fall, both need to be able to contribute in a hurry.

The good news for fans is, that in an admittedly small sample size, Pruitt and his staff have given signs that they’re light years better than Jones when it comes to identifying and developing junior college prospects.

Pruitt signed four junior college prospects in his first hastily assembled recruiting class/ Emmit Gooden, Jahmir Johnson, Dominick Wood-Anderson, Kenneth George.

George’s status is currently up in the air after an off-field incident this spring but all four of those players contributed in their first year in the program. Johnson and Wood-Anderson where full time starters out of the gate. Gooden was arguably the Vols best interior defensive lineman by the end of the season.

It’s more than reasonable to think that everyone in that group will make improvement in their second year in the program.

Junior college recruiting is never going to be the life blood of any program in the SEC, but when you do dip into the junior college ranks, it’s imperative that you don’t waste scholarships and find players who can contribute quickly.

Pruitt’s early endeavors in that area have yielded positive results, unlike his predecessor, who came up short there as he did in many other aspects of his job.
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- Rob Lewis
 
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#154,752
#154,752
chargervol said:
I'm already done. As I already discussed "offer lists" vs recruited hard. Don't care for circle debates.

Jake pointed out how much it was discussed back then, maybe only some of us remember..like a sci fi movie.
Either way, I'm done about Butch Jones, everyone else is free to fondly reminisce if they so choose.
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Alright, if your perception of the 4 star recruits is that they weren't SEC caliber that's fine. But that's also perception and not really something that can be debated.

The biggest problem is I'm simply sharing the information and you're becoming condescending towards me for it...seems uncalled for, whatever though.
 
#154,755
#154,755
Sleegro said:
Hell, catbone is one of my favorite posters.
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KittyCartilage is the best. Highly underrated poster. The one time he talked about his mom walking in, yelling at her, and knocking a plate of food out of her hand had me absolutely rolling on the floor.
 
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#154,756
#154,756
bignewt said:
Amen. Like a bunch of Germans sitting around after WWII arguing over how they lost.
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BxKzx5pIMAAjHjK.jpg:large
 
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#154,758
#154,758
MoCo_Vol said:
The biggest problem is I'm simply sharing the information and you're becoming condescending towards me for it...seems uncalled for, whatever though.
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Yeah, my reaction towards you is a real mystery.
MoCo_Vol said:
You can either prove your point, or stop trying to make it. In hindsight quite a few of the CBJ era guys didn't pan out, well documented. But to act like they didn't have other big time school offers is easily disputed. The information is out there. If they had an offer the assumption is they picked us OVER the other schools who offered, that's not an outlandish claim to make or a "hot take" it's the only tangible evidence that exist.

It's not like Bama or Florida and other schools are going to release a "we offered, but weren't actually going to take 'em" list or anything.
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And that's after you guys claimed I said a bunch of stuff about Jones never recruiting any good players.

Last I checked, that's called lying and I really don't appreciate that.
 
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#154,761
#154,761
Of our JUCOs.....

Jahmir Johnson will get drafted. Size concerns obviously but I think he's a long-armed tenacious OL that will win teams over in the interview process. Kid seems willing to do whatever to help the team. And he'll have several years of film/experience to showcase.

I think Emmitt Gooden has a good shot at being a mid round guy. Then again, I thought Alexis Johnson played well enough to at least get some NFL consideration last year and as far as I know he didn't even get a camp invite.

Dominic Woods-Anderson sounds pretty one dimensional per reports. I think if we showcase his receiving skills, he'll have a chance to get drafted. But if he doesn't excel at that then I think he likely is an UDFA.

Jordan Allen, I don't want to write off too soon because I think he has two more years (pretty sure he was a 3-3 guy) to turn it around, but he just seemed lost out there last year.

Kenneth George won't be on the team as far as I know. At least thats what most people speculate.


Way too early to speculate on the '19s but obviously Savion Williams has the feel of a potential NFL guy.

Middleton I'm afraid doesn't "love" defense enough. Seems to have always gotten by on just being bigger than everyone else. Won't be the case anymore. I'll be impressed if this staff can light a fire and he gives us quality minutes, let alone gets NFL consideration.
 
#154,763
#154,763
chargervol said:
Yeah, my reaction towards you is a real mystery.

And that's after you guys claimed I said a bunch of stuff about Jones never recruiting any good players.

Last I checked, that's called lying and I really don't appreciate that.
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I never said you did anything, and to be fair you never proved any point other than "I think..."

I'm dropping it though. I truly don't care enough to create anymore animosity over it with you or other regulars. Gillette isn't sponsoring my appearance to debate CBJ recruiting...
 
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#154,764
#154,764
jakez4ut said:
it was smoke and mirrors cause none of it was sustainable. it was a house of cards that came crumbling down the minute he started to field questions on Hurd, his status and why championships weren't important.

it was all pitch. no substance. the kids that saw thru that went elsewhere. and so did more than a few of the kids he actually signed here.....and no, there's no way to go back and prove who had committable offers to this place or that.

but we know not all offers are committable, so it's not unreasonable to speculate on who might not have had an actual spot at Bama, despite the offer.
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That’s not the argument or point. Obviously he didn’t sustain it bc his classes after that were ass and the program fell apart. But nothing really changed. In fact public and program perception were the highest they had been in a while it’s weird that he recruited worse coming off better season when the program was thought to be a lot better than when he took over. Because if you go back and look at those 14 and 15 classes they were filled with good players 3* and 4*s both so you would think he (or someone) was doing good in the evaluation department even when it didn’t align with star rankings so for him to recruit that well and then all of a sudden just crap the bed even tho everything he had to pitch to recruits was better than when he took over is just really odd to me. That’s why i think the Welton situation is weird and there had to be some kind of change in the recruiting/evaluation philosophy.
 
#154,765
#154,765
HoleInTheRoof said:
Juco article from VQ

- Rob Lewis
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Dooleys first class was stacked. One of my biggest what ifs is how that year would’ve gone if Wilcox stayed as DC and we didn’t have Sal.

Also DaRick not getting booted. Dude was absolutely heart broken when that happened. Still wore all his UT gear even to practice while at TTU
 
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#154,768
#154,768
MoCo_Vol said:
I never said you did anything, and to be fair you never proved any point other than "I think..."

I'm dropping it though. I truly don't care enough to create anymore animosity over it with you or other regulars. Gillette isn't sponsoring my appearance to debate CBJ recruiting...
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My point was overlooked, other than a shot at Hanks infatuation with our former coaches and ADs. Which is weird, idc what anyone says.

The real point was that we could accept some commits now and that would ease the fan angst. But it's useless if they're not a fit or don't pass our coaches test (whatever that is).
Jones definitely just took recruits that didn't make sense or maybe even fit in to other programs but not ours. You can debate what VQ meant by "paper 4 stars" but I think their point was both clear and obvious. Same as mine. He wasn't recruiting based on actual need or fit but on rankings.
I have no interest in repeating that experience and no clue why their choice of phrasing would bother anyone but Hank and maybe Reader vol.

But do support you on the Gillette discussion, no clue what the other guy is talking about.
 
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#154,771
#154,771
chargervol said:
My point was overlooked, other than a shot at Hanks infatuation with our former coaches and ADs. Which is weird, idc what anyone says.

The real point was that we could accept some commits now and that would ease the fan angst. But it's useless if they're not a fit or don't pass our coaches test (whatever that is).
Jones definitely just took recruits that didn't make sense or maybe even fit in to other programs but not ours. You can debate what VQ meant by "paper 4 stars" but I think their point was both clear and obvious. Same as mine. He wasn't recruiting based on actual need or fit but on rankings.
I have no interest in repeating that experience and no clue why their choice of frazing would bother anyone but Hank and maybe Reader vol.

But do support you on the Gillette discussion, no clue what the other guy is talking about.
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Lol what else is there to talk about especially during dead periods? Want to run through
All our current commits. That will take 6 minutes. It’s just funny how every time we hire a new coach most people forget that they were once All in on them all lol.
 
#154,773
#154,773
HankHill said:
Lol what else is there to talk about especially during dead periods? Want to run through
All our current commits. That will take 6 minutes. It’s just funny how every time we hire a new coach most people forget that they were once All in on them all lol.
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The difference being after it's proven they were a mistake, most of us stop 😏
 
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#154,774
#154,774
chargervol said:
My point was overlooked, other than a shot at Hanks infatuation with our former coaches and ADs. Which is weird, idc what anyone says.

The real point was that we could accept some commits now and that would ease the fan angst. But it's useless if they're not a fit or don't pass our coaches test (whatever that is).
Jones definitely just took recruits that didn't make sense or maybe even fit in to other programs but not ours. You can debate what VQ meant by "paper 4 stars" but I think their point was both clear and obvious. Same as mine. He wasn't recruiting based on actual need or fit but on rankings.
I have no interest in repeating that experience and no clue why their choice of frazing would bother anyone but Hank and maybe Reader vol.

But do support you on the Gillette discussion, no clue what the other guy is talking about.
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Yes, and I am really glad CJP isn't taking players that he doesn't feel will help just so we can be in the top 15 of recruiting service rankings in May/June/July to make the fans happy.
 
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