To Protect and to Serve II

#7,451
#7,451
GreyWolf1129 said:
Sorry about your Aunt. I hope the offender answered for their crime. Yes, it was a crime.

So...no personal injury, no foul, right? Okay...you walk into a bank; show a robbery note; never show a weapon; and walk out with a bag of money. Customers in the bank didn't even know it was a robbery until after you left.

Civil matter, right? No one was hurt. The bank is the victim here, not the State.

Hmmmm.......
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I believe theft is a crime in every state.
 
#7,453
#7,453
GreyWolf1129 said:
Sorry about your Aunt. I hope the offender answered for their crime. Yes, it was a crime.

So...no personal injury, no foul, right? Okay...you walk into a bank; show a robbery note; never show a weapon; and walk out with a bag of money. Customers in the bank didn't even know it was a robbery until after you left.

Civil matter, right? No one was hurt. The bank is the victim here, not the State.

Hmmmm.......
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Not sure if you technically want to go down this road using that example. The money that bank has is just an electronic entry.

You cant rob money from somebody that has access to a printing press.
 
#7,456
#7,456
BearCat204 said:
If you don’t think that DUI laws have deterred people getting smashed and driving behind the wheel, then I don’t know how we could have a reasonable discussion. We just disagree with the very principle of your argument here and neither of us are going to convince the other any differently. I against most over policing, but with DUI enforcement, I just feel differently.
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I don’t think DUI laws stop anyone from drinking and driving any more than homicide laws stop murder. There are plenty of stories of people getting their 8th or 10th or 15th DUI. Texting and driving leads to far more accidents and fatalities than DUI, shall we start chucking those people in jail as well?
 
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#7,457
#7,457
DancingOutlaw said:
I don’t think DUI laws stop anyone from drinking and driving any more than homicide laws stop murder. There are plenty of stories of people getting their 8th or 10th or 15th DUI. Texting and driving leads to far more accidents and fatalities than DUI, shall we start chucking those people in jail as well?
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Indeed. You’re more than twice as likely to be killed by a sober driver than one with any alcohol in their system. I’m not advocating for drinking and driving, just pointing out a fact. 30% of all fatalities involve alcohol. 70% don’t.
 
#7,458
#7,458
DancingOutlaw said:
I don’t think DUI laws stop anyone from drinking and driving any more than homicide laws stop murder. There are plenty of stories of people getting their 8th or 10th or 15th DUI. Texting and driving leads to far more accidents and fatalities than DUI, shall we start chucking those people in jail as well?
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Rasputin_Vol said:
Not sure if you technically want to go down this road using that example. The money that bank has is just an electronic entry.

You cant rob money from somebody that has access to a printing press.
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Solid post, Ras. You just eliminated our entire national debt.

Send Xi Ping, or whatever his name is, a full moon shot. We're back in the black.

:cool:

Honestly, I've never liked someone so much that I disagreed with so often.

Well, except for my bride...
 
#7,459
#7,459
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
I’ll propose a scenario. Let’s say a man is drunk and drives into a private citizens fence, destroying it. To me, the issue is between the driver and the property owner. The property owner is the victim here. Why shouldn’t the two parties exchange insurance info and that be the end of it? Why does the state have to show up with their enforcers (police) and arrest the driver and extort him out of thousands of dollars the actual fence owner will never see? The most likely answer is it’s used as a deterrent. Let’s see, upwards of 35,000 people are killed on American roadways every year. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing we do on a daily basis. People drive drunk every day, it’s unenforceable. This attitude simply leads to checkpoints and other losses of liberty.

My Aunt was killed by a drunk driver back in 1990. I would never dream of advocating for more laws to make the alcohol content of someone’s blood a crime. Life is full of tragic situations and it is very fragile, but so is freedom.
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Your point isn't lost on me, and I am sorry about your aunt, however, I'd much rather prevent even just one tragedy from occurring, and enforce DUI laws rather than allowing inebriated fools the "freedom" to make decisions that they aren't capable of making.

Per usual, we're on polar opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue.
 
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#7,460
#7,460
GreyWolf1129 said:
Solid post, Ras. You just eliminated our entire national debt.

Send Xi Ping, or whatever his name is, a full moon shot. We're back in the black.

:cool:

Honestly, I've never liked someone so much that I disagreed with so often.

Well, except for my bride...
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You may be surprised at how true my statement is, unfortunately. We literally print money out of thin air. Every dollar created today makes the dollars created before it less valuable. The more they print, the less purchasing power you have in your wallet.
 
#7,461
#7,461
orangeblood79 said:
Your point isn't lost on me, and I am sorry about your aunt, however, I'd much rather prevent even just one tragedy from occurring, and enforce DUI laws rather than allowing inebriated fools the "freedom" to make decisions that they aren't capable of making.

Per usual, we're on polar opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue.
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Then let's make all drugs and alcohol illegal...
 
#7,462
#7,462
orangeblood79 said:
Your point isn't lost on me, and I am sorry about your aunt, however, I'd much rather prevent even just one tragedy from occurring, and enforce DUI laws rather than allowing inebriated fools the "freedom" to make decisions that they aren't capable of making.

Per usual, we're on polar opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue.
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Let's abolish the 2A also.
 
#7,463
#7,463
orangeblood79 said:
Your point isn't lost on me, and I am sorry about your aunt, however, I'd much rather prevent even just one tragedy from occurring, and enforce DUI laws rather than allowing inebriated fools the "freedom" to make decisions that they aren't capable of making.

Per usual, we're on polar opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue.
Click to expand...

Let's ban cars.
 
#7,465
#7,465
orangeblood79 said:
Your point isn't lost on me, and I am sorry about your aunt, however, I'd much rather prevent even just one tragedy from occurring, and enforce DUI laws rather than allowing inebriated fools the "freedom" to make decisions that they aren't capable of making.

Per usual, we're on polar opposite ends of the spectrum on this issue.
Click to expand...

Can you think of anything else you want to ban just to save one life?
 
#7,469
#7,469
I think the DUI thing might not be assigned the right context in some people's minds. At issue is the overt public safety risk associated with impaired driving. Cars aren't the issue. Alcohol isn't the issue. Being drunk isn't the issue. Being chemically impaired while operating thousands of pounds of rolling potential death in the public domain is a direct action unambiguously associated with greatly increasing the likelihood of harm. While we're talking context let's consider the previously cited 70%/30% fatality figures. Let's ruminate on that for a moment. Consider all the gazillions of miles driven by all those people out there and 1 in 3'ish fatalities are alcohol related? That sounds like a huge overrepresentation to me.

Consider being out in public and someone just starts randomly shooting. Now we can't tell what this person's intent might be and he hasn't actually shot anyone yet. Hell, we don't know if he was going to ever shoot anyone. Do we just wait? Does somebody have to actually be shot before it's any big deal? If you were there and had a gun and some bullets whizzed past you and your wife/child/gf do you think you'd be justified in shooting back with lethal intent? If you killed them given that scenario how likely do you think you'd be charged with murder and why/why not?

I'm pretty high on freedoms associated with one's own dealings but public roads are not your own dealings. (the whole public thing) Becoming intoxicated and putting yourself behind the wheel is a direct line of action and volition that needlessly puts people that aren't you at risk. Trying to keep them off the roads prior to getting people killed isn't a terribly difficult thing to justify IMO.
 
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#7,470
#7,470
Rasputin_Vol said:
Then let's make all drugs and alcohol illegal...
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Rasputin_Vol said:
Let's abolish the 2A also.
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Rasputin_Vol said:
Let's ban cars.
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Rasputin_Vol said:
If we banned drugs, alcohol, cars and guns, how would police departments make money on the citizens?
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We will never agree on this, Ras. Ever.

We both feel as though our opinions are rooted in logic and a fundamental sense of decency towards the overall freedoms of citizens.

I'm just the type of person that would prefer to have this discussion in person, over a few beers, so that we could, at the very least, see that the other person is sincere, well intentioned, and simply wants the best for people...it's just that we both have differing views on how things should be.

...or maybe one or both of us are a**holes, I don't know.

I just don't have the patience to type it all out. Sorry dude.
 
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#7,471
#7,471
Rasputin_Vol said:
If we banned drugs, alcohol, cars and guns, how would police departments make money on the citizens?
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Hell, if we’re going by numbers we should get serious and ban doctors. They kill upwards of 250,000 people every year due to medical errors. Considering 35,000 people die on American roads every year and of that number only 10,000 are alcohol related. Yes, ban doctors.

Sarcasm off.
 
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#7,472
#7,472
ob79 said:
We will never agree on this, Ras. Ever.

We both feel as though our opinions are rooted in logic and a fundamental sense of decency towards the overall freedoms of citizens.

I'm just the type of person that would prefer to have this discussion in person, over a few beers, so that we could, at the very least, see that the other person is sincere, well intentioned, and simply wants the best for people...it's just that we both have differing views on how things should be.

...or maybe one or both of us are a**holes, I don't know.

I just don't have the patience to type it all out. Sorry dude.
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Better not drive afterwards. I couldn’t resist.
 
#7,473
#7,473
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Hell, if we’re going by numbers we should get serious and ban doctors. They kill upwards of 250,000 people every year due to medical errors. Considering 35,000 people die on American roads every year and of that number only 10,000 are alcohol related. Yes, ban doctors.

Sarcasm off.
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Ban sugar.
 
#7,475
#7,475
ob79 said:
We will never agree on this, Ras. Ever.

We both feel as though our opinions are rooted in logic and a fundamental sense of decency towards the overall freedoms of citizens.

I'm just the type of person that would prefer to have this discussion in person, over a few beers, so that we could, at the very least, see that the other person is sincere, well intentioned, and simply wants the best for people...it's just that we both have differing views on how things should be.

...or maybe one or both of us are a**holes, I don't know.

I just don't have the patience to type it all out. Sorry dude.
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I agree that we are both "sincere, well intentioned, and simply wants the best for people". But we disagree on the point of "overall freedoms of citizens". Your idea is to make as many things illegal as necessary for the sake of public safety. I'm not sure where you draw the line at with regards to making things illegal, but you have to be honest and admit that your idea of public safety revolves around prohibitions of certain activities and aggressive enforcement of "pre-crime" laws. Again, all are well intentioned, sincere, and aimed at helping the people. But don't think that these ideas are not restrictive to freedoms.
 
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