Amateur Hour Continues

#5,976
#5,976
Velo Vol said:
Most commonly-cited estimates are ~11 million.
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Yeah, and that number hasn't gone up since I first heard it many years ago. I guess their deaths plus any that went home must equal their births plus any new ones coming in for the last several years.
 
#5,977
#5,977
1972 Grad said:
Yeah, and that number hasn't gone up since I first heard it many years ago. I guess their deaths plus any that went home must equal their births plus any new ones coming in for the last several years.
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Those would be American citizens, not illegal immigrants.
 
#5,978
#5,978
evillawyer said:
Maybe some random numbers from the Forbes magazine that Stormy left behind?
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Once again , anybody that states the numbers is guessing and or assuming ... doesn’t matter who the person or organization is . You state a low to middle number , he states a middle to high number ... I’ll be anybody any amount you are both wrong . You just can’t prove any number .
 
#5,979
#5,979
0nelilreb said:
Once again , anybody that states the numbers is guessing and or assuming ... doesn’t matter who the person or organization is . You state a low to middle number , he states a middle to high number ... I’ll be anybody any amount you are both wrong . You just can’t prove any number .
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That's missing the point. He's stating very specific numbers. He either got them from somewhere or he made them up whole cloth. No one can find the numbers anywhere, which suggests the latter. Frankly, that seems worse than just stating the figures put forth by some xenophobic hate group.
 
#5,980
#5,980
evillawyer said:
That's missing the point. He's stating very specific numbers. He either got them from somewhere or he made them up whole cloth. No one can find the numbers anywhere, which suggests the latter. Frankly, that seems worse than just stating the figures put forth by some xenophobic hate group.
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Each side uses the numbers that best fits their agenda , overstating numbers for your benifit is no worse than understanding them for a different purpose . You point out fear and hate the opposite side would be exceptance of theft . See one isn’t any worse than the other . The problem is neither side wants to find out the real numbers . Nobody in government wants to have real numbers known .. that puts their agendas in a bind .
 
#5,981
#5,981
0nelilreb said:
Nobody in government wants to have real numbers known .. that puts their agendas in a bind .
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Which government? What agenda?

Anyway, maybe the reason it's difficult to get an accurate count is because many of the people are living in a manner that avoids being counted?
 
#5,982
#5,982
0nelilreb said:
Each side uses the numbers that best fits their agenda , overstating numbers for your benifit is no worse than understanding them for a different purpose . You point out fear and hate the opposite side would be exceptance of theft . See one isn’t any worse than the other . The problem is neither side wants to find out the real numbers . Nobody in government wants to have real numbers known .. that puts their agendas in a bind .
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Is the argument this:

No one knows for sure what the actual figures are.
If no one knows what the actual figures, then any set of figures are just as valid as any other set.

That's a terrible argument. Consider:

No one knows how much snow we'll get exactly.
If no one knows how much snow we'll get exactly, then any estimate is equally valid.
I think we'll get 1 million inches this year.
The best meteorologist thinks we'll get between 12-15 inches.
Both views are equally valid since neither of us know for sure what the exact figure is.
 
#5,983
#5,983
Velo Vol said:
Which government? What agenda?

Anyway, maybe the reason it's difficult to get an accurate count is because many of the people are living in a manner that avoids being counted?
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Our government , full of idiots from both sides that are protecting their own agendas . If you are here as an illegal and you recieve a check , services , a license of any kind , you are in a system somewhere . Make it so you have to prove your status before being hired on ANY job and you’ll find out fast the numbers are not right .
 
#5,984
#5,984
evillawyer said:
Is the argument this:

No one knows for sure what the actual figures are.
If no one knows what the actual figures, then any set of figures are just as valid as any other set.

That's a terrible argument. Consider:

No one knows how much snow we'll get exactly.
If no one knows how much snow we'll get exactly, then any estimate is equally valid.
I think we'll get 1 million inches this year.
The best meteorologist thinks we'll get between 12-15 inches.
Both views are equally valid since neither of us know for sure what the exact figure is.
Click to expand...

It’s not an argument , I’m not arguing . I’m stating facts you can’t refute . I’m telling you what any person that doesn’t let the agendas influence their facts will tell you . FACT: nobody knows what the real numbers are it’s impossibke to know so then we just give our best guess . How do you even start to guess when you can’t collect the data you need to make the guess ?

Edit : think about what you said . You said it’s a terrible argument , then at the end stated a fact ..Both views are equally valid since we don’t have exact figures . You can also say both are equally lies to push an agenda for the same reason .
 
#5,985
#5,985
0nelilreb said:
It’s not an argument , I’m not arguing . I’m stating facts you can’t refute . I’m telling you what any person that doesn’t let the agendas influence their facts will tell you . FACT: nobody knows what the real numbers are it’s impossibke to know so then we just give our best guess . How do you even start to guess when you can’t collect the data you need to make the guess ?
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The fact that data is incomplete does not mean that all estimates are equally bad or good. In particular, completely outlandish ones (such as Trump's) that appear to be moored to nothing can be quickly rejected.
 
#5,986
#5,986
0nelilreb said:
Our government , full of idiots from both sides that are protecting their own agendas . If you are here as an illegal and you recieve a check , services , a license of any kind , you are in a system somewhere . Make it so you have to prove your status before being hired on ANY job and you’ll find out fast the numbers are not right .
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I wasn't sure if you were talking federal, state, or who.

Anyway, as you imply, lots of people are fine with the status quo and its ready supply of cheap labor.
 
#5,987
#5,987
evillawyer said:
The fact that data is incomplete does not mean that all estimates are equally bad or good. In particular, completely outlandish ones (such as Trump's) that appear to be moored to nothing can be quickly rejected.
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Your TDS is getting in the way of admitting both use the numbers on either end of the scale for their own purposes . Doesn’t matter that one is high and one is low ball . Still wrong .
 
#5,989
#5,989
0nelilreb said:
Your TDS is getting in the way of admitting both use the numbers on either end of the scale for their own purposes . Doesn’t matter that one is high and one is low ball . Still wrong .
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The fact that there is disagreement does not mean that both sides are fudging the numbers or using equally bad estimates. Often, one side has the numbers in their favor in that the best estimate supports their position. In fact, that side often adopts a particular position specifically because the numbers say what they do.
 
#5,990
#5,990
Velo Vol said:
The ~11 million estimate is from government census research, though.
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When ? How was it taken ? You mean 11 million said they were illegal ? If so are they still here after admitting it ? Would 11 million deportations not affect that number ? So many questions .... almost no answers .
 
#5,991
#5,991
evillawyer said:
The fact that there is disagreement does not mean that both sides are fudging the numbers or using equally bad estimates. Often, one side has the numbers in their favor in that the best estimate supports their position. In fact, that side often adopts a particular position specifically because the numbers say what they do.
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Interesting .
 
#5,992
#5,992
0nelilreb said:
When ? How was it taken ? You mean 11 million said they were illegal ? If so are they still here after admitting it ? Would 11 million deportations not affect that number ? So many questions .... almost no answers .
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Here's the Pew Center's estimate, based on government data. You can follow the links for methodology.

U.S. Unauthorized Immigration Total Lowest in a Decade

PI_2018.11.27_unauthorized-immigrants_0-01.png
 
#5,993
#5,993
I think he's actually doing so much work that they just have to put it in microscopic text so it fits on the page. Either that or they don't list being dog walked by pelosi as an activity.

 
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