Recruiting Forum Football Talk [RIP 9.3.2019]

[JP_UT_O&W]

Reading through the Kelly Bryant thread and saw this post from 2014...

A Clemson friend of mine just told me that their Rivals mods are saying UT's staff is the best group of recruiters in the entire Southeast. They want Dooley back baaaaaadly.

Welp

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

Culture is a B.S. analytical device that has become the buzzword d'jour. All of our players want to win and are willing to work hard. Most of them are playing in new systems that do not necessarily fit their skill sets. Even our best player is playing tackle instead of his natural position at guard. Quit blaming the players for CJP's insistence on implementing his system this year instead of adapting to something that might actually accentuate the skills for which most of our current roster was recruited. Tired of the player blaming.

 

[Nashvegas31]

So, you don’t think Georgia has a “culture” yet?

If the coaching staff is worth a damn at selling a vision and getting buy in from a roster, it shouldn’t take more than a year.

That doesn’t mean it will be perfect. But you should have a team behind its coaches with players doing what they’re supposed to be doing.

Pruitt had already helped change a lot of that culture/mentality at UGA. Every program is different and I'm not sure the mess that butch left behind can be comparable to anything. He mentally broke these kids.

 

[Theshag]

I don't buy that it takes three years to instill culture, but it takes more than 9 months to fix years of poor conditioning, training, and recruiting.

So yeah, it sucks some of the team gave up after the turnover to start the 2nd. That's gotta be a ding against this staff, but it's not like the players magically had the benefit of years of good coaching that would have made climbing the hill against Flordia any easier.

It's been four games, I'm not going to cast judgement on the players or the coaches until I see more.

 

[jakez4ut]

Culture is a B.S. analytical device that has become the buzzword d'jour. All of our players want to win and are willing to work hard. Most of them are playing in new systems that do not necessarily fit their skill sets. Even our best player is playing tackle instead of his natural position at guard. Quit blaming the players for CJP's insistence on implementing his system this year instead of adapting to something that might actually accentuate the skills for which most of our current roster was recruited. Tired of the player blaming.

well i disagree with your claim that this is just buzzword B.S. culture is a real thing and it matters, and you can tell when you have good culture, and when you have bad culture.

that said.........there's a fine line between being disciplined to your process and being stubborn. the great ones know where that line is. it's unknown right now if pruitt does.

 

[mrMet]

Wouldn't this that be kind of funny if Pruitts rights all butchs wrongs by having them all transfer here for last yrs lol... Dodson and McClesky.

I work with Dodson’s cousin. Maybe he’ll tell me something

 

[HoleInTheRoof]

Our biggest issue as I see it is S&C - and the steady turnover as well as lack of accountability we’ve seen at the position not just in 2017, but for quite a while.

A lot of these guys just don’t have the foundation of strength, endurance, and mental toughness that a consistent to elite S&C program will instill.

That’ll improve significantly as soon as next season, and provided Fitzgerald stays, I think by 2020 we’ll have some beasts on this team.

 

[jakez4ut]

I don't buy that it takes three years to instill culture, but it takes more than 9 months to fix years of poor conditioning, training, and recruiting.

So yeah, it sucks some of the team gave up after the turnover to start the 2nd. That's gotta be a ding against this staff, but it's not like the players magically had the benefit of years of good coaching that would have made climbing the hill against Flordia any easier.

It's been four games, I'm not going to cast judgement on the players or the coaches until I see more.

the length of time to change the culture depends on two things:
1. the leaders making the change
2. the ones having to go thru the change--how many buy in, the eariler the better, and how many have to go that won't, and how logn does it take to weed them out?

i think for this staff, and this roster, it's probably 1-2 years max. just remember, culture is a big word, kind of like s&c and player development...none of it happens overnight. and some take longer than others, it's all situationally driven. in Kriby's case, that timeline was really short, because they had alot of the foundational stuff already done, and Kirby came in and provided the leadership needed to bridge the gap in just 2 years.

it's taken Mark Stoops 6 years to do it. situations are completely different, yet both are pretty impressive, relatively speaking.

 

[mrMet]

He is. Regarding holding the ball too long... JG got the ball out fast against WVU but I think our two cupcake games gave him a false sense of security with our OL.

I could agree with this

 

[Kingston Vol]

Georgia players were also coming off of back to back 10 win seasons. Buying into a winning culture would be much easier for them.

And I guarantee you that Richt’s culture was much more similar to Smart’s than Butch’s was to Pruitt’s.

I would argue it should be much easier for guys that have lost a ton to buy in than guys who have won doing things the old way.

 

[mrMet]

Random thoughts:

When Jeremy Pruitt was hired, members of the sports media (Athlon, CBS Sports, ESPN, USA Today, and Sports Illustrated) graded the hire as B, C+, B-, C, and 3.2/5.0, respectively. I think that works out to around a C+ average. Obviously this is just their perceptions and at the time their perceptions were likely impacted by the coaching search itself.

I remember most of us here were really optimistic for his rebuild of the imploding 2018 recruiting class. In some cases we got carried away with our expectations. In hindsight many would now probably agree that he did better than what should have been reasonably expected under the circumstances including having 2 jobs and the introduction of the early signing period.

There were generally pretty positive reviews across the board for the coaching staff he assembled. Most came from having early experience as high school coaches and had worked their way up to big time college football. Some were SEC veterans. The staff was perceived as good teachers. At least five members of the new staff had carried or would have the title of coordinator, either offensive or defensive, however, only Pruitt, himself, was actually a well-seasoned and highly regarded play caller.

In my view we at Tennessee tend to put our coaches on a pedestal, at least for a honeymoon period. It’s not unwarranted as fans. It’s just the way it is. We’re really not all that unique as a fanbase, at least in that regard. We do the same for our recruits. I’m not sure who has the shorter honeymoon, recruits or coaches, but it does seem like a lot of people would like to get rid of most if not all of the existing roster at the same time we get rid of a coaching staff.

The average age of college football fans is 52. The cost of attendance continues to increase and is only marginally affordable for anyone outside of the affluent class. The average age has continued to increase over the past couple of decades. Most members of the younger generations are growing up and coming of age in a time where the prospects for our football program have perhaps never been bleaker.

Erik Ainge has said a number of times that it’s hard on a staff and team to lose anywhere in the SEC but it’s hardest to lose in Knoxville.

Our fans have A+ level expectations for everything about our football program. The truth may be that the only things about our football program that ranks that high is our strength of schedule and the amount of revenue the football program continues to produce year after year, almost without regard to the product on the field.

I’m older than the average and I’ve been a die-hard fan longer than the average has even been alive. I know all the evidence strongly suggests that we’re at best a C+ football program but I still believe. When I was a young teenager I would sit at the kitchen table every week looking at the rankings in the newspaper, trying to figure out who above us could lose so we could move up. There is only one spot in the rankings I ever would have been satisfied with and it was the very top. Nothing about that has changed.

This weekend we’re going to Athens. Almost everyone I know is convinced we’ll be blown off the field just like we were supposed to have been in the 1985 Sugar Bowl. Old Dominion proved this past week that teams with a 98.4% chance of losing can still sometimes surprise you. I think I can honestly say that there has never been a single game in my life as a Tennessee football fan where I didn’t expect us to win either because we were obviously the better team or just because I believe in surprises. I don’t mean I have been hoping we would win; I mean I just don’t have it in me to expect us to lose. It’s never been there. It just doesn’t fit.

We’ll need an A+ performance this week and that’s what I’m looking for when we go down to Georgia Saturday and beat those Dawgs!

I’ll be in Athens with ya pulling for the Vols. F*** the nega nancies

 

[jakez4ut]

Our biggest issue as I see it is S&C - and the steady turnover as well as lack of accountability we’ve seen at the position not just in 2017, but for quite a while.

A lot of these guys just don’t have the foundation of strength, endurance, and mental toughness that a consistent to elite S&C program will instill.

That’ll improve significantly as soon as next season, and provided Fitzgerald stays, I think by 2020 we’ll have some beasts on this team.

agreed, and not to harp on the culture thing, but we all know how important those s&c programs are to these big time programs, and that's where a lot of that culture comes from. it's not just the head coach or the coordinators....the s&c staffs are the ones that really challenge these guys to find more in them than they knew they had.

 

[McGeesPub]

So, you don’t think Georgia has a “culture” yet?

If the coaching staff is worth a damn at selling a vision and getting buy in from a roster, it shouldn’t take more than a year.

That doesn’t mean it will be perfect. But you should have a team behind its coaches with players doing what they’re supposed to be doing.

I actually think Butch did a pretty good job of installing his culture 2013-2015. We were a tough football team those years. He just no idea how to manage players as they got older, and that poisoned the well.

 

[jakez4ut]

I would argue it should be much easier for guys that have lost a ton to buy in than guys who have won doing things the old way.

sounds right. but think about it this way...........what if you believed the reason for the sucking was because of something other than you? like say, the coaching staff? and since they're gone, we should be good to go, cause "i'm not the problem".

speculation on my part totally, but i would be shocked, based on what i've seen so far, that if there's 85 guys over there that all take the same level of individual ownership of their performance.

 

[Kingston Vol]

I actually think Butch did a pretty good job of installing his culture 2013-2015. We were a tough football team those years. He just no idea how to manage players as they got older, and that poisoned the well.

I agree. He had that team bought in after one year. The talent wasn’t there to capitalize on it but he effectively sold his vision to them. It fell to **** because he deviated from his culture and couldn’t handle success at this level.

My larger point is this team should “play like” a Jeremy Pruitt led team after year one. 20 months in his S&C program, with the attrition of guys that don’t buy in, and we should play the way he wants to play. It might not result in wins because the talent won’t be there, but I don’t buy that it takes 3 years.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

culture is the new synergy. it can mean anything, which is exactly the point. It's one of those weasel words that a person can use and not have to worry about anyone making them own it down the road because it could mean anything. there isn't really anything wrong with the 'culture' of the program. people are not going to jail. the graduation rate is better than in the past. the players are obviously hurt by the losses. i'd much rather hear some measurables thrown out there that we can all benchmark as of four weeks ago and evaluate as the season progresses. this is probably a silly thing to tee off on, but I like straight shooters.

 

[jakez4ut]

I actually think Butch did a pretty good job of installing his culture 2013-2015. We were a tough football team those years. He just no idea how to manage players as they got older, and that poisoned the well.

that's the difference in a sales pitch, and culture. culture lasts.

 

[Aesius]

I actually think Butch did a pretty good job of installing his culture 2013-2015. We were a tough football team those years. He just no idea how to manage players as they got older, and that poisoned the well.

I think that if we win either the OU or UF games in 2015, Butch is still here and doing fairly well. He had a meltdown after those losses and changed his entire coaching philosophy.

 

[jakez4ut]

culture is the new synergy. it can mean anything, which is exactly the point. It's one of those weasel words that a person can use and not have to worry about anyone making them own it down the road because it could mean anything. there isn't really anything wrong with the 'culture' of the program. people are not going to jail. the graduation rate is better than in the past. the players are obviously hurt by the losses. i'd much rather hear some measurables thrown out there that we can all benchmark as of four weeks ago and evaluate as the season progresses. this is probably a silly thing to tee off on, but I like straight shooters.

the funny thing is everything you described could be defined as culture. having a culture doesn't = good/great.

it's just a way of doing things. your way, it sounds, would be more data driven and it would consist of being accountable to seeing improvements or meeting baselines that determine success/failure. and that's fine.

the point is, whatever your culture is, it has more chance of being successful, if it's meaningful to those that implement it, bought in to by those it's being deployed to, and repeated by those that have to go execute.

it's not the "what".

it's the "how and why"...and that can be defined, like you said, by anything.

 

[VolunteerHillbilly]

I get it. I just foresee a lot of posts a couple of years from now instructing us that we have to give more time because the culture had to be replaced before the real rebuild could begin.

 

[jakez4ut]

I think that if we win either the OU or UF games in 2015, Butch is still here and doing fairly well. He had a meltdown after those losses and changed his entire coaching philosophy.

it was his coaching philosohy that put him those positions. there were many things he was good at. most all the off field stuff he gets high marks for.

but his situational football awareness and mentality toward playing to win vs. not to lose was abysmal. and those sitautions are what cost him those two game for sure. and that's a real easy way to lose a football team, and an even easier way to find out there's not enough behind the sales pitch, because when push comes to shove, i'm going to refer to a chart. not trust my players to go make plays.

 

[jakez4ut]

I get it. I just foresee a lot of posts a couple of years from now instructing us that we have to give more time because the culture had to be replaced before the real rebuild could begin.

i'm glad you're not Yoda then. cause i'd hate to know right now, that's what we're in for.

all things being equal, based only on what i know right now, i'd say this is a 1-2 year turnaround on the "culture" thing. and probably 2-3 on the talent/development deal.

2020 should be a good season.

 

[mrMet]

I agree. He had that team bought in after one year. The talent wasn’t there to capitalize on it but he effectively sold his vision to them. It fell to **** because he deviated from his culture and couldn’t handle success at this level.

My larger point is this team should “play like” a Jeremy Pruitt led team after year one. 20 months in his S&C program, with the attrition of guys that don’t buy in, and we should play the way he wants to play. It might not result in wins because the talent won’t be there, but I don’t buy that it takes 3 years.

10000%

 

[JAllen18]

I think that if we win either the OU or UF games in 2015, Butch is still here and doing fairly well. He had a meltdown after those losses and changed his entire coaching philosophy.

I think we would have averaged around 8 wins. I dont think Butch was a championship winning coach. He was searching for every excuse of positivity for his program.

 

[SoMissVol]

The night of the signing-day party, when Tyson Helton said we are going to line up and run the ball and play action, ALL of VolNation, and the fan base, were pumped out of our minds to hear that. We were so sick of seeing spread, shotgun, clap your hands...we were screaming for a straightforward attack. And now that Helton is giving us EXACTLY what we wanted, SOME are ready to run him out of town.

Not only are they trying to install a new offense, but a new identity/culture. This is who they want to be, who WE wanted them to be. Unfortunately, as my brother puts it, "you can't win the Kentucky Derby with a bunch of damn donkeys".

So, we have to ask ourselves: do we try something new to try and mask our flaws, with no guarantee of success, and get away from what we want this program and offense to be, going forward...
Or, do we stick to what we want to do, take our tail-kickings and lumps, to establish what Tennessee Football is going to be going forward, our foundation, our culture, lining up and running the football, and play-action...that's who Jeremy Pruitt and Tyson Helton want to be, and EXACTLY who we wanted them to be.

This right here. I saw so many “run the damn ball” memes last season that it was nauseating. Now, we’re running the ball and people are mad because we don’t run the ball well. WHAT DO YOU WANT, PEOPLE?!