Recruiting Forum Off Topic Thread III

[jakez4ut]

I'll never understand how a complete contradiction can be said to be the same.

But no, there should not be another point of view because there is only one truth.

which is why i'll give you credit for what you believe in, and standing by it. as stated, i wouldn't expect you to respond in any other manner. i don't have to guess what you mean, or why.

as to the latter, this is basic crux of my issue with the evangelical christian. your basing this off a religious belief that was splintered off several other religious beliefs, all based on one premise, from thousands of years ago. i just don't have that same confidence in man's ability to take the Word of God, and construct it in a fashion that 'really gets it'.

and making no account for man's role in the interpretation, or teaching, of it, is inherently dangerous. it's just acceptance.

which, i get it, is the most basic, minimum requirement for any faith.

 

[BigZiti09]

Unless He's telling the truth as confirmed by His resurrection. He is either "a liar, a lunatic, or Lord" -C.S. Lewis.

You can't say that you don't believe what He said and then say that you admire Him as a teacher. If He wasn't telling the truth He was either a liar or a lunatic, not someone to be admired.

Right on. Either Jesus is who He said He is or we are talking about a complete fraud. There's no in between.

Probably a good time to bow out now for me. Hats off to those who kept it a reasonable discussion for a while. :hi:

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

Isn't he the one that offered eternal salvation to all of the humans that aren't worthy of it otherwise?

Newsflash, I admire and love many Christians as well, including my mother, in-laws, aunts, granparents, etc.

Not sure why my statement warranted such a knee jerk response?

You literally said this on this same page:

The holiness that created Hell?

"If you don't worship me, I will send you to a burning lake of fire for you to suffer for all eternity."

I, just like all people, cannot grasp eternity, but I would never wish such a thing on anyone, for I am not sadistic. That, coupled with so many disturbing bible verses, disproved benevolence and holiness.

Why does a god need the approval of his lowly creations? Just like to have his ego stroked? Secondly, why does god have a penis? Does he use it? It would make much more sense for god to be a woman, as they give way to all life.

And then, on the same page, you say you admire the teachings of the One who taught this same thing. Just pointing out that this is very inconsistent.

Christ also believed the OT was the word of God and accepted all of it as truth. But you say those verses are "disturbing."

Just be consistent.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Isn't he the one that offered eternal salvation to all of the humans that aren't worthy of it otherwise?

Newsflash, I admire and love many Christians as well, including my mother, in-laws, aunts, granparents, etc.

Not sure why my statement warranted such a knee jerk response?

Same here. Most of my friends are christians, my wife is, most of my family, etc. Hell, one of my very best friends is a pastor.

 

[bignewt]

Same here. Most of my friends are christians, my wife is, most of my family, etc. Hell, one of my very best friends is a pastor.

Tolerance and empathy can be beautiful things.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

which is why i'll give you credit for what you believe in, and standing by it. as stated, i wouldn't expect you to respond in any other manner. i don't have to guess what you mean, or why.

as to the latter, this is basic crux of my issue with the evangelical christian. your basing this off a religious belief that was splintered off several other religious beliefs, all based on one premise, from thousands of years ago. i just don't have that same confidence in man's ability to take the Word of God, and construct it in a fashion that 'really gets it'.

and making no account for man's role in the interpretation, or teaching, of it, is inherently dangerous. it's just acceptance.

which, i get it, is the most basic, minimum requirement for any faith.

Some of this is right and some is wrong. Of course I believe that the Bible is inspired by God and is thus perfect and infallible. I also believe that man does play a role in interpretation of it, which is why there are many denominations within Protestantism. But, I also believe in the doctrine of "perspicuity." that doctrine does not say that the entire bible is very easy to understand with no difficult. It does teach however, that everything necessary for faith and godliness is clear and easy to understand. So that, for example, when Christ says "I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Me," we do not have to do exegetical gymnastics to figure out what that means. It is very straightforward and clear.

But I appreciate the respect that you have shown to me in this discussion. It is appreciated.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

We don't have to talk about murder. We can talk about lying, stealing, cheating, extortion, or any other thing you can think. What makes it wrong? Why is it wrong to do it.

Stealing/extortion: Sucks to have it done to oneself and almost always is a net societal bad that risks undermining the rules of law and order.


Cheating (assuming you mean like on a test): for something like a quiz on long division, idk that it is a moral issue. If it’s on something like MCATs or a Bar exam, then you could be putting others’ lives at risk potentially. That ain’t good for society either.


Lying: depends on the context, IMO. It’s basically human nature to lie at times and is ingrained our cultures in many ways. If everybody was honest 100% of the time, we wouldn’t have a very harmonious world to live in.

Uh, no I did not do as you said in your second paragraph. You can claim that if you want, and if you want to it would once again demonstrate that you do not care what is being said. Maybe Ziti is right and you just want to belittle.

C’mon, you’re being dramatic here.

You said you would join a war and kill and would not consider it murder (I’m paraphrasing, but anybody can go back and see that was the gist of it).

You also said that the genocide of Canaanites was, IMO, not murder.

My point is, as it has been, that without God there is no "why." There is no reason to say that anything is wrong. What makes it right and what makes it wrong? If it is just opinion, then opinions vary from person to person and culture to culture, and you could never accuse someone of being genuinely evil or good. It would just be your opinion.

And I don’t get what is so important about being able to claim that there is a greater power backing you up on something like “murder/theft” is bad. Humans have been around a long time. After hundreds of thousands of years, we’ve (for the most part) settled on some things almost all of us agree suck to be on the receiving end of and we’re better off not doing to each other.

I just don’t get the need to claim it’s all an ordained absolute. The end result is the same.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Here is more evidence that you have now left the area of having thoughtful discussion. With that, our conversation is over.

Really? What is upsetting about that? It was a genuine question. Sorry if I said a dirty word.

 

[VolunteerVandiver]

You literally said this on this same page:



And then, on the same page, you say you admire the teachings of the One who taught this same thing. Just pointing out that this is very inconsistent.

Christ also believed the OT was the word of God and accepted all of it as truth. But you say those verses are "disturbing."

Just be consistent.

I look at Jesus and god as two different beings, for I don't think Jesus is the son of god.

I admire some of his teachings. I admire some of the teachings of MLK, Bill Clinton, as well as others, despite them having fraudulent qualities as well.

 

[bignewt]

Some of this is right and some is wrong. Of course I believe that the Bible is inspired by God and is thus perfect and infallible. I also believe that man does play a role in interpretation of it, which is why there are many denominations within Protestantism. But, I also believe in the doctrine of "perspicuity." that doctrine does not say that the entire bible is very easy to understand with no difficult. It does teach however, that everything necessary for faith and godliness is clear and easy to understand. So that, for example, when Christ says "I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Me," we do not have to do exegetical gymnastics to figure out what that means. It is very straightforward and clear.


But I appreciate the respect that you have shown to me in this discussion. It is appreciated.

I feel like you are getting ganged up on of course you are responding so not really. I would be interested to here your thoughts on Revelations, the most vague and differently interpreted book of the bible as it pertains to the rapture and the end times etc.

 

[bignewt]

I look at Jesus and god as two different beings, for I don't think Jesus is the son of god.

I admire some of his teachings. I admire some of the teachings of MLK, Bill Clinton, as well as others, despite them having fraudulent qualities as well.

Don't forget Jesus had great abs.

Also I wouldn't say Clinton has any "teachings" other than screw everything in the room and kill anyone that won't help cover up your shady deals.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Unless He's telling the truth as confirmed by His resurrection. He is either "a liar, a lunatic, or Lord" -C.S. Lewis.

You can't say that you don't believe what He said and then say that you admire Him as a teacher. If He wasn't telling the truth He was either a liar or a lunatic, not someone to be admired.

Trying to say this in a way that isn’t too disrespectful:

There is a fourth option. That option is that in the generation or so between his actions/words and the time they were written about, they became exaggerated.

 

[volfanCLT]

Right on. Either Jesus is who He said He is or we are talking about a complete fraud. There's no in between.

Probably a good time to bow out now for me. Hats off to those who kept it a reasonable discussion for a while. :hi:

I also enjoyed reading everyone’s opinions before a few posters decided to take it off the rails.

Always like hearing others opinions and why they belive what they belive.

 

[Chief Vol 13]

What you can do is tell them to explore and think for themselves and seek the answers to life, live fully and abide by the golden rule.

I can tell you this, my kids won't be taught that it's alright to be homosexual

 

[VolunteerVandiver]

Don't forget Jesus had great abs.

Also I wouldn't say Clinton has any "teachings" other than screw everything in the room and kill anyone that won't help cover up your shady deals.

Meh, I am entertaining my 5 month old at the moment, and he was one of the first flawed leaders that came to mind. He is one of my favorite public speakers of all time, so I think I give him a bit more than he deserves.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

I feel like you are getting ganged up on of course you are responding so not really. I would be interested to here your thoughts on Revelations, the most vague and differently interpreted book of the bible as it pertains to the rapture and the end times etc.

I don't feel ganged up on. I recognize that I am in the minority on here, but this is good for me, it is challenging to me, and hopefully it is challenging to everyone on here. Being challenged on our worldview and having to think through our positions on such important issues is a good thing imo. I hope everyone else feels the same. When people start throwing around insults tho, or purposely misrepresenting a position in order to score a "gotcha," there's just no point in responding anymore.

But as to your question, Revelation is extremely difficult to interpret. I believe, in some ways, it is purposefully so. There is mystery involved in eschatology, which is why there are so many different views on the meaning of Revelation. There are Dispensational premillennialists, historical premils, amillennialists, postmillennialists, and even different spin offs of each of these. This however, is not something that falls under the banner of perspicuity as someone who believes any of these could be a Christian. I am personally a premillennialist, but I go to church with people who hold different views and my educators held to different views as well.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

I can tell you this, my kids won't be taught that it's alright to be homosexual

Good.


They should be taught that it’s fabulous

 

[bignewt]

I can tell you this, my kids won't be taught that it's alright to be homosexual

cool story bro

 

[roosterjbh]

Really? What is upsetting about that? It was a genuine question. Sorry if I said a dirty word.

Bass sets the terms for discussion

 

[Chief Vol 13]

:good!: Morality comes from God. If it comes from man then it's just one man's opinion vs another as to what is right or wrong.

On many issues people make a mistake in saying that this or that is simply an opinion, when it's not. Many moral issues are written about in God's word. Such as homosexuality, fornication, etc. When someone says it's a sin to be gay, that's not an opinion. It's what we're told in the Bible.

 

[bignewt]

I don't feel ganged up on. I recognize that I am in the minority on here, but this is good for me, it is challenging to me, and hopefully it is challenging to everyone on here. Being challenged on our worldview and having to think through our positions on such important issues is a good thing imo. I hope everyone else feels the same. When people start throwing around insults tho, or purposely misrepresenting a position in order to score a "gotcha," there's just no point in responding anymore.

But as to your question, Revelation is extremely difficult to interpret. I believe, in some ways, it is purposefully so. There is mystery involved in eschatology, which is why there are so many different views on the meaning of Revelation. There are Dispensational premillennialists, historical premils, amillennialists, postmillennialists, and even different spin offs of each of these. This however, is not something that falls under the banner of perspicuity as someone who believes any of these could be a Christian. I am personally a premillennialist, but I go to church with people who hold different views and my educators held to different views as well.

So it is purposefully mysterious? Don't you find that odd that the one book dealing with the end of the world, perhaps the most important part, would be vague and really non-interpretable? There are nightly Christian "news" shows that solely delve into the end times and all the signs as shown in revelations. My parents talk about the rapture coming like the Strawberry Festival. Would you not say it written to strike fear into man? You better get right before Jesus comes back and the mark of the beast is forced upon you! Its just so...tough to grasp.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

Trying to say this in a way that isn’t too disrespectful:

There is a fourth option. That option is that in the generation or so between his actions/words and the time they were written about, they became exaggerated.

Now that is a fair discussion point that we can have. The problem is, historical evidence is not on your side. First, the apostles were eyewitnesses. They gave their lives preaching that Christ had risen from the dead. Were they lying? Who would die for something they knew was a lie? People say well, religious folks die all the time like the guys who committed 9/11. Sure, but they believed the message, they didn't know it was a lie. The apostles spread the gospel that Christ died and rose again and they suffered torture and death preaching it. Who would endure that if they knew that they were lying?

Their message also spread very broadly and yet, as we examine the textual evidence, we find the same things being taught to the Romans is the same thing being taught to the Ephesians because the text of the Bible lines up.

1st Corinthians 15, for example, is what is known as a Christian hymn. Paul says "he received it" from others. This has been dated to within 2 years of the resurrection, very shortly after Paul's own conversion. It would be very difficult for legend to develop in that short of time.

Further, we have writings of contemporaries. We can look at Clement of Rome who wrote in the 1st century a letter to the Corinthians emphasizing some of the same points Paul did. He even quotes the book of Hebrews.

We have writings from students of the apostles such as Polycarp the student of John. We have writings from his students and others as well. The message is consistent. There are no legendary developments.

So while people might try to claim that, there just isn't historical evidence for it.

 

[Chief Vol 13]

Me being alive is pretty amazing, life in general is amazing, you're right. IMO, if "God" did all of this that god is very different than what most people believe. The Bible, all it's teachings, etc are just made up by man. In my little brain it seems insane to think that a god who made the world, stars, galaxies, and everything beyond had anything to do with the Bible or any other religion on earth. Our wonderful planet is just a tiny spec of dust in the grand scheme of it all. We're all very lucky to be here and I'm grateful for my life.

How do you explain there not being a single contradiction in the Bible? Certain books are hundreds and hundreds of years older than other books, but everything still lines up. Every prophecy in the Old Testament game true in the New.

 

[bignewt]

On many issues people make a mistake in saying that this or that is simply an opinion, when it's not. Many moral issues are written about in God's word. Such as homosexuality, fornication, etc. When someone says it's a sin to be gay, that's not an opinion. It's what we're told in the Bible.

Is it a sin to leave a steaming pile in a public restroom? Surely there is a passage that is relevant there.

 

[VolunteerVandiver]

I can tell you this, my kids won't be taught that it's alright to be homosexual

This is a very tough subject, as I know a few gay people, one of which is an uncle I adore.

He is incredibly giving, loving, and has strong moral values. When you talk to him about it, he says that he was born that way, as he has never been attracted to a woman in his life.

He has no reason to lie about this, and in his defense, I have never been attracted to a man before.

I have taught my son that people have genetic predispositions to being homosexual or bisexual, but that doesn't diminish their value as people, and to treat everyone the way you want to be treated.

No, my children haven't grown up in a religious household, but they have been exposed to empathy and unconditional love. They have been taught to be good for the sake of being good. They are not judgemental, as they are very accepting of those that are different from them.

The world needs more love and affective empathy, and less judgement and division.