Recruiting Discussion

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#7,576
#7,576
I feel like many have said the same since early on...plan was to build a foundation, becoming a winning program, build relationships with younger recruits and ideally those paths would meet. I feel as though that is what we are seeing with the 2019 class and also seeing with 2020.
 
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#7,577
#7,577
BigZiti09 said:
You’re changing the argument now. The topic was the perception of UT being bad and it scaring top recruits away.
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Not at all. You were the one that mentioned one 4 star in 4 years. It's the combination of recruiting high level players at a school that has been bad.
 
#7,578
#7,578
VolGee4 said:
Not at all. You were the one that mentioned one 4 star in 4 years. It's the combination of recruiting high level players at a school that has been bad.
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Here’s the paragraph I was responding to originally....

MinisterofDef#92 said:
Lastly, I cannot agree you should still recruit kids who have outright or virtually told you they are not coming which is what I was referring to (again, no one can know but I believe the top recruits wanted to no part of UT early on in Barnes' tenure and I cannot blame them).
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Specifically the part in parentheses.
 
#7,580
#7,580
BigZiti09 said:
Here’s the paragraph I was responding to originally....



Specifically the part in parentheses.
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Yea, nothing changes with what I said. By Grant winning POY, he was underrated. So, the "4 star" argument isn't exactly great.

But I get it. Eventually, you aren't going to get production like that out of 3 star kids. But the staff did a great job evaluating talent when they couldn't land the higher rated players.
 
#7,581
#7,581
Rob Lewis is in Georgia for the EYBL session this weekend and talked with some guys...

On DJ Burns...says Burns wouldn’t come out and name a leader but that he still feels like this one is going to go Tennessee’s way and he would be surprised if he’s not a Vol.

On Tre Mann...says it sounds like Mann wants to visit Kansas if possible as that offer caught his attention, thinks the Vols are definitely in it and that relationship Mann has with Lanier is something nobody else obviously has. Could still do something soon but sounds as though he would like to see Kansas first.

On CJ Walker...Tennessee recently offered, plays on the same squad as Mann, doesn’t know a ton about Tennessee but is open to hearing more. As of now RL feels like tennesse would likely get an official from him but he’s a guy that’s wide open and offers are coming in daily.

On Kira Lewis...spoke very highly of the Tennessee staff, Vols were one of his first offers and he hasn’t forgotten that. Recently UK and KU have gotten involved though and that has caught his attention, Vols are still in it and will remain involved, as of today Vols would like get an OV.
 
#7,582
#7,582
VolGee4 said:
Yea, nothing changes with what I said. By Grant winning POY, he was underrated. So, the "4 star" argument isn't exactly great.

But I get it. Eventually, you aren't going to get production like that out of 3 star kids. But the staff did a great job evaluating talent when they couldn't land the higher rated players.
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I was just saying I don’t buy the excuse that nobody wanted to come to Tennessee. Not arguing whether or not Barnes was able to find some players.
 
#7,583
#7,583
BigZiti09 said:
I was just saying I don’t buy the excuse that nobody wanted to come to Tennessee. Not arguing whether or not Barnes was able to find some players.
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I think the question...which way was better is valid?

Early on Barnes was compared to Bruce Pearl, Ben Howland, and Avery Johnson as they were all hired the same year except Pear who was 1 year sooner. Those 3 coaches were consistently pointed to as examples of why Barnes wasn’t successful on the recruiting trail, now that we have had 2-3 years to judge let’s look back...




Rick Barnes Tennessee: 57-44 overall, 27-27 SEC record, 7th place avg. SEC finish, 1 NCAAT appearance.




Ben Howland Mississippi State: 55-45 overall, 22-32 SEC record, 10th place avg. SEC finish, 0 NCAAT appearances.

Recruiting:
Malik Newman ***** transferred after 1 season
Quindarry Weatherspoon ****
Aric Holman ****
Schnider Herard **** transfers after 1 season
Mario Kegler **** transfers after 1 season
Eli Wright **** transfer after 1 season
Tyson Carter ****
Lamar Peters **** suspended multiple times
Abdul Ado **** ineligible 1st season
Nick Weatherspoon****




Avery Johnson Alabama: 57-46 overall, 26-28 SEC record, 8th place avg. SEC finish, 1 NCAAT appearance.

Recruiting:
Braxton Key **** transferred after 2nd season
Ar’Mond Davis **** transferred after 1st season
Collin Sexton ***** one and done to NBA
John Petty ****
Alex Reese ****




Bruce Pearl Auburn: 70-62 overall, 29-43 SEC record, 9th place avg. SEC finish, 1 NCAAT appearance.

Recruiting:
Trayvon Reed **** dismissed after 1 season
Cinmeon Bowers ****
Horace Spencer ****
Danjel Purifoy **** ineligible amid FBI investigation
TJ Dunans ****
Mustapha Heron ***** unexpectedly leaves for NBA after 2nd year
Austin Wiley **** ineligible amid FBI investigation
Jared Harper ****
Chuma Okeke ****
Davion Mitchell **** transferred after 1 season





So by my count 14/25 or 56%, of 4 & 5 stars recruited to those 3 schools ended up transferring, leaving early for NBA, or were ruled ineligible. So sure, Tennessee could have gotten some guys ranked similarly, but would those guys have been better for the program long term than say the Jalen Johnson’s, John Fulkerson’s or Yves Pons? This isn’t a debate I’m looking to have over whether we need to recruit better, or if Barnes and staff are changing their philosophy etc. this is something completely different and I’m just looking at it because it was a popular point being made 2-3 years ago.

Another aspect of it that I haven’t dove into is what is the shape of each team for next year as well? Mississippi State looks like a likely Top 25 team, Alabama is a bit unknown, I think they’ll be similar to what they were this year, however Auburn looks like they’ve been decimated and I’m not sure what they’re going to put out there...meanwhile Tennessee appears set to be ranked Top 10 preseason and unless something unexpected happens should be ranked for most of the season which would threaten the school record for most consecutive weeks ranked.
 
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#7,584
#7,584
bleedingTNorange said:
I think the question...which way was better is valid?

Early on Barnes was compared to Bruce Pearl, Ben Howland, and Avery Johnson as they were all hired the same year except Pear who was 1 year sooner. Those 3 coaches were consistently pointed to as examples of why Barnes wasn’t successful on the recruiting trail, now that we have had 2-3 years to judge let’s look back...




Rick Barnes Tennessee: 57-44 overall, 27-27 SEC record, 7th place avg. SEC finish, 1 NCAAT appearance.




Ben Howland Mississippi State: 55-45 overall, 22-32 SEC record, 10th place avg. SEC finish, 0 NCAAT appearances.

Recruiting:
Malik Newman ***** transferred after 1 season
Quindarry Weatherspoon ****
Aric Holman ****
Schnider Herard **** transfers after 1 season
Mario Kegler **** transfers after 1 season
Eli Wright **** transfer after 1 season
Tyson Carter ****
Lamar Peters **** suspended multiple times
Abdul Ado **** ineligible 1st season
Nick Weatherspoon****




Avery Johnson Alabama: 57-46 overall, 26-28 SEC record, 8th place avg. SEC finish, 1 NCAAT appearance.

Recruiting:
Braxton Key **** transferred after 2nd season
Ar’Mond Davis **** transferred after 1st season
Collin Sexton ***** one and done to NBA
John Petty ****
Alex Reese ****




Bruce Pearl Auburn: 70-62 overall, 29-43 SEC record, 9th place avg. SEC finish, 1 NCAAT appearance.

Recruiting:
Trayvon Reed **** dismissed after 1 season
Cinmeon Bowers ****
Horace Spencer ****
Danjel Purifoy **** ineligible amid FBI investigation
TJ Dunans ****
Mustapha Heron ***** unexpectedly leaves for NBA after 2nd year
Austin Wiley **** ineligible amid FBI investigation
Jared Harper ****
Chuma Okeke ****
Davion Mitchell **** transferred after 1 season





So by my count 14/25 or 56%, of 4 & 5 stars recruited to those 3 schools ended up transferring, leaving early for NBA, or were ruled ineligible. So sure, Tennessee could have gotten some guys ranked similarly, but would those guys have been better for the program long term than say the Jalen Johnson’s, John Fulkerson’s or Yves Pons? This isn’t a debate I’m looking to have over whether we need to recruit better, or if Barnes and staff are changing their philosophy etc. this is something completely different and I’m just looking at it because it was a popular point being made 2-3 years ago.

Another aspect of it that I haven’t dove into is what is the shape of each team for next year as well? Mississippi State looks like a likely Top 25 team, Alabama is a bit unknown, I think they’ll be similar to what they were this year, however Auburn looks like they’ve been decimated and I’m not sure what they’re going to put out there...meanwhile Tennessee appears set to be ranked Top 10 preseason and unless something unexpected happens should be ranked for most of the season which would threaten the school record for most consecutive weeks ranked.
Click to expand...

You used more than paper to measure recruiting success. What a novel idea
 
#7,585
#7,585
bleedingTNorange said:
I think the question...which way was better is valid?

Early on Barnes was compared to Bruce Pearl, Ben Howland, and Avery Johnson as they were all hired the same year except Pear who was 1 year sooner. Those 3 coaches were consistently pointed to as examples of why Barnes wasn’t successful on the recruiting trail, now that we have had 2-3 years to judge let’s look back...
[...]
Click to expand...

Now THAT'S the kind of post that keeps readers coming back to volnation.com!

Thank you, bleedingTNorange, for following a clear path of logic and then taking the time to do the research. Well presented! :salute:
 
#7,586
#7,586
bleedingTNorange said:
I think the question...which way was better is valid?

Early on Barnes was compared to Bruce Pearl, Ben Howland, and Avery Johnson as they were all hired the same year except Pear who was 1 year sooner. Those 3 coaches were consistently pointed to as examples of why Barnes wasn’t successful on the recruiting trail, now that we have had 2-3 years to judge let’s look back...




Rick Barnes Tennessee: 57-44 overall, 27-27 SEC record, 7th place avg. SEC finish, 1 NCAAT appearance.




Ben Howland Mississippi State: 55-45 overall, 22-32 SEC record, 10th place avg. SEC finish, 0 NCAAT appearances.

Recruiting:
Malik Newman ***** transferred after 1 season
Quindarry Weatherspoon ****
Aric Holman ****
Schnider Herard **** transfers after 1 season
Mario Kegler **** transfers after 1 season
Eli Wright **** transfer after 1 season
Tyson Carter ****
Lamar Peters **** suspended multiple times
Abdul Ado **** ineligible 1st season
Nick Weatherspoon****




Avery Johnson Alabama: 57-46 overall, 26-28 SEC record, 8th place avg. SEC finish, 1 NCAAT appearance.

Recruiting:
Braxton Key **** transferred after 2nd season
Ar’Mond Davis **** transferred after 1st season
Collin Sexton ***** one and done to NBA
John Petty ****
Alex Reese ****




Bruce Pearl Auburn: 70-62 overall, 29-43 SEC record, 9th place avg. SEC finish, 1 NCAAT appearance.

Recruiting:
Trayvon Reed **** dismissed after 1 season
Cinmeon Bowers ****
Horace Spencer ****
Danjel Purifoy **** ineligible amid FBI investigation
TJ Dunans ****
Mustapha Heron ***** unexpectedly leaves for NBA after 2nd year
Austin Wiley **** ineligible amid FBI investigation
Jared Harper ****
Chuma Okeke ****
Davion Mitchell **** transferred after 1 season





So by my count 14/25 or 56%, of 4 & 5 stars recruited to those 3 schools ended up transferring, leaving early for NBA, or were ruled ineligible. So sure, Tennessee could have gotten some guys ranked similarly, but would those guys have been better for the program long term than say the Jalen Johnson’s, John Fulkerson’s or Yves Pons? This isn’t a debate I’m looking to have over whether we need to recruit better, or if Barnes and staff are changing their philosophy etc. this is something completely different and I’m just looking at it because it was a popular point being made 2-3 years ago.

Another aspect of it that I haven’t dove into is what is the shape of each team for next year as well? Mississippi State looks like a likely Top 25 team, Alabama is a bit unknown, I think they’ll be similar to what they were this year, however Auburn looks like they’ve been decimated and I’m not sure what they’re going to put out there...meanwhile Tennessee appears set to be ranked Top 10 preseason and unless something unexpected happens should be ranked for most of the season which would threaten the school record for most consecutive weeks ranked.
Click to expand...

All of that is valid. I just don’t buy the “nobody would come to Tennessee” line. It’s just silly.

And coaches squandering talent at one place doesn’t mean we shouldn’t want the best talent we can get at our place.

Again - I’m not questioning whether or not he got good players. Obvious he did. I’m not as sold on our reserves but the first 6 or 7 have developed nice.

I think our path to success is getting top 150 guys who pan out and stay four years. Not the one and done 5*. Said that a million times but just like to make sure I’m not coming off as wanting to recruit like Kentucky
 
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#7,587
#7,587
BigZiti09 said:
All of that is valid. I just don’t buy the “nobody would come to Tennessee” line. It’s just silly.

And coaches squandering talent at one place doesn’t mean we shouldn’t want the best talent we can get at our place.

Again - I’m not questioning whether or not he got good players. Obvious he did. I’m not as sold on our reserves but the first 6 or 7 have developed nice.

I think our path to success is getting top 150 guys who pan out and stay four years. Not the one and done 5*. Said that a million times but just like to make sure I’m not coming off as wanting to recruit like Kentucky
Click to expand...

I think the main idea is that we have built a program while those other teams are still struggling to do so. They built teams almost immediately, but with players who faded almost immediately at a 56% clip.

Had Tennessee recruited in a similar fashion, then perhaps we are sitting here in year 4 wondering why we can't generate any momentum towards sustained success. People may not have agreed with the way he built the program, or the time it took, but the results are definitely more promising for the future of our program versus those others.

Now, to your point, we definitely need to continue to improve our recruiting profile, pursue better talent, and land that talent. I think we are starting to see that pursuit, starting to see interest reciprocated, and hopefully we start landing those guys.
 
#7,589
#7,589
BigZiti09 said:
All of that is valid. I just don’t buy the “nobody would come to Tennessee” line. It’s just silly.

And coaches squandering talent at one place doesn’t mean we shouldn’t want the best talent we can get at our place.

Again - I’m not questioning whether or not he got good players. Obvious he did. I’m not as sold on our reserves but the first 6 or 7 have developed nice.

I think our path to success is getting top 150 guys who pan out and stay four years. Not the one and done 5*. Said that a million times but just like to make sure I’m not coming off as wanting to recruit like Kentucky
Click to expand...



But haven’t we done that, or are you saying the roster needs a higher % of those ranked guys? Turner, Bone, Johnson, Parker, Pons and Williams were all in that 125-175 range iirc, so roughly 50% of the roster. The other 50% seems to be guys like Admiral, Fulk, Walker, Kent, Alexander and Bowden...guys who would likely be ranked in the 175-250 range. Now these are probably typically guys who aren’t ready Day 1, sure you may find the rare case but mostly they’ll need a year or two, and maybe even a redshirt...however they are also the type that is seemingly not looking for the easy path and is willing to play through limited minutes for their chance.

In short, is 2 years and a transfer of a four star ranked 120 better than a 4-5 year guy ranked 175? My guess is you’ll find cases to support both sides, sure ideally you get that 120 ranked guy to stay 4 years, but as evidenced above there’s only about a 40% chance of that happening in these past classes so maybe Barnes and staff felt taking a guy like that wasn’t worth the risk? And that the reason we are seeing more of those guys now is that the time has been there for staff to build relationships and get to know these guys well enough that they feel they are likely that 40% that would stay?
 
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#7,597
#7,597
BigZiti09 said:
All of that is valid. I just don’t buy the “nobody would come to Tennessee” line. It’s just silly.

And coaches squandering talent at one place doesn’t mean we shouldn’t want the best talent we can get at our place.

Again - I’m not questioning whether or not he got good players. Obvious he did. I’m not as sold on our reserves but the first 6 or 7 have developed nice.

I think our path to success is getting top 150 guys who pan out and stay four years. Not the one and done 5*. Said that a million times but just like to make sure I’m not coming off as wanting to recruit like Kentucky
Click to expand...

The difference in our views seems to be you feel Barnes thinks he is entitled and has earned the right not to work as hard as he should to recruit as well as we need. I, on the other hand, think it is far more likely that Barnes knows how best to spend his time (recruiting, player development, etc...) given the "current" situation whatever it may be and, so far, the results show he has been right beyond what virtually any poster hoped for (especially the Barne's is in retirement mode crowd from a couple years ago).
 
#7,599
#7,599
BigZiti09 said:
Well his assistant coach pretty much said as much so......
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But in what context? It could be he feels he does not have to hit the road and "put the time in" OR he "earned the right" to choose how best to use his time and in that situation it was not worth it in his mind. Based on all that we know about Barne's character and body of work thus far at TN, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and not assume the worst when there are other plausible explanations.
 
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#7,600
#7,600
MinisterofDef#92 said:
But in what context? It could be he feels he does not have to hit the road and "put the time in" OR he "earned the right" to choose how best to use his time and in that situation it was not worth it in his mind. Based on all that we know about Barne's character and body of work thus far at TN, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and not assume the worst when there are other plausible explanations.
Click to expand...

Tennessee Vols basketball assistant coach responds to recruiting critics
 
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