To Protect and to Serve II

#4,976
#4,976
LouderVol said:
you guys are constantly overlooking that no one is saying cops are blameless if an innocent dies or gets hurt. I think everyone here says they should face the same justice the rest of us do. Do they? No, but that's reality and no fault of the good ones.

you guys are comparing Greywolf and others to the enforcers of PolPot right after he gets done saying he lets small stuff slide.

you need a boogeyman to back up your irrational fear (beyond the rational) of the government. with out a day to day face to blame your cause loses a lot of value so you paint with your broadest brush possible.

its the same as comparing you AnCAP people (or whatever non flag you fly under) to full blown Anarchists actively burning crap down.
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My argument is more than “killing others is bad”. My argument is that any immoral act (locking people in a cage for possessing things you don’t like) is still immoral even when it’s your job. Doing an immoral act for money, doesn’t make it any less immoral.

My fears of government are already backed up by the fact that so many of you are willing to justify immoral acts by statements like “it’s the law” or “it’s their job”.

The anarchists actually burning crap down do give anarcy a bad name, on that point I agree
 
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#4,977
#4,977
InVOLuntary said:
You answered your first question with your second answer. Just because your morality says it's wrong doesn't mean it's wrong. You're applying your morality to the laws. If I said I thought murder was ok and should not be prosecuted, I'm sure you would not be ok with murder being legal. I'm a libertarian as well. I believe similar to you about freedom.
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Well, let’s see what your morality says:

Your neighbor is growing a plant. A third party doesn’t like that plant and they pay you to lock him up in a cage. Is taking the money a morally acceptable act, in your opinion?

And like I already said: I don’t see murder as subjective. 99.99% of people will agree murder should be illegal. No real subjectivity there. Outside of a very small few psychopaths, everyone is on board.

It’s the subjective that’s the issue.
 
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#4,978
#4,978
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Keep in mind, the only power the politicians have, is the power the police give them. Call it nullification on a grand scale lol
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doubtful. they have as much power as we the people allow them to have. as long as we buy into the system they have power. I can't tell you the last time I interacted with a cop beyond a nod or a hello. I honestly can't tell you the last time the fear of arrest, ticket, or whatever stopped or caused me pause. what power do the politicians inflict on me through cops?
 
#4,979
#4,979
InVOLuntary said:
You answered your first question with your second answer. Just because your morality says it's wrong doesn't mean it's wrong. You're applying your morality to the laws. If I said I thought murder was ok and should not be prosecuted, I'm sure you would not be ok with murder being legal. I'm a libertarian as well. I believe similar to you about freedom.
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Your morality would be wrong.
There is no victim in someone using or selling a drug, drinking or selling unpasteurized milk, buying beer before noon on a Sunday, dying a duck blue and selling less than six ( yes it's a crime). There is a victim in a murder, robbery, assault, rape, etc.
 
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#4,980
#4,980
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Considering government killed 262 million people in the 20th century alone, I’d say that’s hardly irrational. Google democide.

As I stated above, cops give the politicians power by enforcing their arbitrary commands and demands otherwise known as laws. If cops simply protected life and property, I’d have no problem. We all know that’s not the case...
I have stated, many times, that some good people are unfortunately cops. However there are no good cops. It’s the profession itself that is the problem.
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again you jump straight to hyperbole. Because bad governments have done bad things with cops, no one should have cops. seems legit. might as well argue no militaries as well. no more modern medicine because some sickos in the past used illegal/inhumane/non-voluntary human experimentation to further a medical idea.

real world works with compromise. cops can do bad things, they can also do good things (doesn't get brought up enough the sacrifices some make in this thread). one life saved doesn't equal another life taken, but if you are wanting to look at numbers look at the whole thing. don't work to get rid of them, won't happen. work on real common goal changes. then you will see something happen. Don't paint every single one of them as a murderous enforcer of the deep state agenda and you won't see them close ranks as much.

just as much as their escalation causes you guys to freak out, why doesn't anyone (the ones who want to see change) try the opposite? maybe instead of seeing them as no good cops, get to know them and engage, see if that makes a difference.
 
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#4,981
#4,981
LouderVol said:
doubtful. they have as much power as we the people allow them to have. as long as we buy into the system they have power. I can't tell you the last time I interacted with a cop beyond a nod or a hello. I honestly can't tell you the last time the fear of arrest, ticket, or whatever stopped or caused me pause. what power do the politicians inflict on me through cops?
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Do you pay taxes?
 
#4,982
#4,982
Vol8188 said:
Well, let’s see what your morality says:

Your neighbor is growing a plant. A third party doesn’t like that plant and they pay you to lock him up in a cage. Is taking the money a morally acceptable act, in your opinion?

And like I already said: I don’t see murder as subjective. 99.99% of people will agree murder should be illegal. No real subjectivity there. Outside of a very small few psychopaths, everyone is on board.

It’s the subjective that’s the issue.
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I used murder as an example for the same reason you used killing if children as part of a job description.

You don't have to justify legalization of MJ to me. I agree. It's no different than alcohol which is legal. All I ask is don't make me pay your welfare, unemployment, food stamps ect when you can't get a job because it affects your job performance. I realize that it affects people differently and sine function quite well using it but some can't and don't.


You mentioned 99.9 % of folks would agree that murder is wrong. When enough people believe that MJ should be legal, it will be legal. It's happening everywhere. It will be legal everywhere soon I think. It's already decriminalized in most areas. The wheels of government turn slow.
 
#4,983
#4,983
InVOLuntary said:
I used murder as an example for the same reason you used killing if children as part of a job description.

You don't have to justify legalization of MJ to me. I agree. It's no different than alcohol which is legal. All I ask is don't make me pay your welfare, unemployment, food stamps ect when you can't get a job because it affects your job performance. I realize that it affects people differently and sine function quite well using it but some can't and don't.


You mentioned 99.9 % of folks would agree that murder is wrong. When enough people believe that MJ should be legal, it will be legal. It's happening everywhere. It will be legal everywhere soon I think. It's already decriminalized in most areas. The wheels of government turn slow.
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Show me polls saying most people believe marijuana should be illegal? I’ve never seen that poll once.

If it doesn’t exist, then are our laws really the will of the people as you suggest? Or easily changed by the people?

Also you’re ignoring the fact that all said all subjective things should not be legislated. So if it’s a 60-40 split, leave it alone. 30-70, etc. the things universally agreed upon (murder, rape, assault, etc) should be illegal.

Honestly, federal drug prohibition is 100% a violation of the constitution.
 
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#4,984
#4,984
midnight orange said:
Your morality would be wrong.
There is no victim in someone using or selling a drug, drinking or selling unpasteurized milk, buying beer before noon on a Sunday, dying a duck blue and selling less than six ( yes it's a crime). There is a victim in a murder, robbery, assault, rape, etc.
Click to expand...

Lol. Morality can't be wrong. It's what you believe not what others believe. Just as I can't make you have the sane morals as I you can't force your moral code on others. Never did I say there aren't stupid laws. My point is quit blaming the people who job it is to enforce the laws. Get off your lazy ass and work for change. There have been laws that I've spent countless hours and money fighting and candidates that I've spent countless hours and resources either against or for. I get tired of hearing people ***** and moan when all they do is sit on their sofa and with and moan.
 
#4,985
#4,985
Vol8188 said:
Show me polls saying most people believe marijuana should be illegal? I’ve never seen that poll once.

If it doesn’t exist, then are our laws really the will of the people as you suggest? Or easily changed by the people?

Also you’re ignoring the fact that all said all subjective things should not be legislated. So if it’s a 60-40 split, leave it alone. 30-70, etc. the things universally agreed upon (murder, rape, assault, etc) should be illegal.

Honestly, federal drug prohibition is 100% a violation of the constitution.
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I've seen polls regional polls showing that people are in favor of keeping pot illegal. It depends on the region. The last poll I saw in Tennessee was a couple of years ago and it was like 60-40 against legalization but don't hold me to that.

You want to legalize pot, get it on the ballot. Work toward it. Then let the populace decide.
 
#4,986
#4,986
InVOLuntary said:
I've seen polls regional polls showing that people are in favor of keeping pot illegal. It depends on the region. The last poll I saw in Tennessee was a couple of years ago and it was like 60-40 against legalization but don't hold me to that.

You want to legalize pot, get it on the ballot. Work toward it. Then let the populace decide.
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You have to petition a bunch of megalomaniacs to exercise your own human volition to decide what’s right/wrong for you?? This goes for pot, guns, prostitution, raw milk, you name it. That’s insane.
 
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#4,987
#4,987
Vol8188 said:
My argument is more than “killing others is bad”. My argument is that any immoral act (locking people in a cage for possessing things you don’t like) is still immoral even when it’s your job. Doing an immoral act for money, doesn’t make it any less immoral.

My fears of government are already backed up by the fact that so many of you are willing to justify immoral acts by statements like “it’s the law” or “it’s their job”.

The anarchists actually burning crap down do give anarcy a bad name, on that point I agree
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it goes back to your earlier point, but you miss the point. once you get beyond harm its up to society to decide. yeah it boils down to a preference, but like Goldilocks you are free to find out whats too hot, too cold, or just right. you are part of society, whether or not you agree you have given away ultimate freedom by being part of a specific society. you accept other impositions that society places on you, but only seem to care when the end result doesn't go your way. i bet you shower, dress a certain way, speak a certain way, and even think a certain way, all due to society. you have given your freedom away to belong. your the same slave the rest of us are. you go along with the same flow until you get to a bit thats too much, and then the whole system has to come down.

i have yet to see you propose any middle ground. yes cops have signed up to be the enforcers of laws. on the case of weed you say its immoral to enforce, Greywolf says he usually doesn't until they give him a reason. and despite such good behavior he still gets lumped into a group you have said is the same as the Nazis. How exactly is such a thought process/lifestyle moral?
 
#4,991
#4,991
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
Uh huh...
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right, because the government should bend over back wards for you. you are so special that you matter more than the rest of the nation. you want to take away the same rights you rail against losing. you want to take away a group of individuals right to decide what it is they want. despite what people believe they still vote as individuals. deny them the right to choose and I don't see how you are any better.

individual decides he wants to live in a cage. you are all for it. group of individuals decide to live in a cage and what color it is. sharing the cage you complain about the color.

forget society, why does your preference rule over mine?
 
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#4,992
#4,992
LouderVol said:
right, because the government should bend over back wards for you. you are so special that you matter more than the rest of the nation. you want to take away the same rights you rail against losing. you want to take away a group of individuals right to decide what it is they want. despite what people believe they still vote as individuals. deny them the right to choose and I don't see how you are any better.

individual decides he wants to live in a cage. you are all for it. group of individuals decide to live in a cage and what color it is. sharing the cage you complain about the color.

forget society, why does your preference rule over mine?
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DTH is an anarchist. He believes in zero government.
 
#4,993
#4,993
Boy...that all went south in a hurry. I feel like I just sat through a Sovereign Citizen Indoctrination course. Similarities are striking.

Now, those folks are nuts. Chocolate covered.
 
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#4,994
#4,994
LouderVol said:
right, because the government should bend over back wards for you. you are so special that you matter more than the rest of the nation. you want to take away the same rights you rail against losing. you want to take away a group of individuals right to decide what it is they want. despite what people believe they still vote as individuals. deny them the right to choose and I don't see how you are any better.

individual decides he wants to live in a cage. you are all for it. group of individuals decide to live in a cage and what color it is. sharing the cage you complain about the color.

forget society, why does your preference rule over mine?
Click to expand...

I want to decide what to do with my life and property and I want everyone else to do as they choose with their life and property. I believe all interactions between people should be voluntary. There is no greater minority than the individual. Perhaps we’ll get there, one day.
 
#4,996
#4,996
InVOLuntary said:
DTH is an anarchist. He believes in zero government.
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I believe in the individual. If people want to form a government of some kind, and I can voluntarily opt out, without consequences, so be it.

The true measure of your freedom is the ability to opt out of something without consequence.
 
Last edited:
#4,998
#4,998
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
I believe in the individual. If people want to form a government of some kind, and I can voluntarily opt out, without consequences, so be it.

The true measure of your freedom is the ability to opt out of something without consequence.
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So if we come up with this government and we have a road that comes by your house, you can't use it? How are you going to get from point a to point b? Are you going to have to cross other private property? Are you going to have to negotiate with each private property owner?
 
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#4,999
#4,999
InVOLuntary said:
So if we come up with this government and we have a road that comes by your house, you can't use it? How are you going to get from point a to point b? Are you going to have to cross other private property? Are you going to have to negotiate with each private property owner?
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We’d work out something. It’s a true testament to your state worship that you actually think the government owns everything, including the roads.
 
#5,000
#5,000
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
We’d work out something. It’s a true testament to your state worship that you actually think the government owns everything, including the roads.
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The government, you and I own the roads and you and I pay taxes to maintain them. It's a true testament of your naivety thinking you could survive without some government functions.
 
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