Dan Mullen thread (merged)

[fade route]

I think what bothers me most about this whole argument is that so many of you are comparing Butch and Mullen as if they coach at comparable schools so their coaching records can be compared win to win and loss to loss. That to me can only mean that you have a pretty low opinion of the Tennessee program to think it's on par with Miss St.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The most incompetent coach in the school's history (Dooley) was able to land top 15 classes without leaving his office. Butch wasn't considered an elite recruiter until he came here. Tennessee sells itself

Tell me again the composite ranking of Dooley's last recruiting class? Because that's the class who were aware of his incompetence.

In his first year and a few months, everyone thought he was da bomb. Because his sarcastic wit appealed to the recruits and TV personalities alike. They ate it up.

That does not mean you automatically get handed a top 10 recruiting class each year simply for wearing an orange shirt or tie.

 

[JMSqb11]

It seems to me that now you're just turning yourself into an excuse-generating machine for Dan Mullen.

Why are you so hard over for him? He's never won a single championship as a head coach. Never even competed for one. Never got to Atlanta. Only won 10 games one single year. Interviewed for at least three other head coaching jobs in the past few years, never got picked (Willie Taggart, Mark Richt and James Franklin are all apparently better choices).

So...why are you so excited about him? What is it you see in him that screams "Championship Winner at Tennessee!!!"

So much so that you're now reduced to making excuses for him....

LOL. You've lost your mind. Miss State has always been an all time losing school. Yet Mullen takes the job and is a full 11% better than the historical average. That is not what we have now. So in winning percentage alone, would be good at Tennessee.

Secondly, he develops players at the skill positions. We don't have that right now. So in his career developing players, he would be good at Tennessee.

Third, he has a 70% win percentage vs the SEC East. We don't have that now.

Fourth, he has a winning SEC record since 2013. We don't have that now.


You have to be a complete incompetent child to not understand why those 4 things should never happen at Miss State compared to Tennessee.

Last, your whole logic around a coaching change is centered on 4 guys who are never leaving their jobs with one exception to Dabo. He is replacing Saban.

Since we are never getting any of those 4 by your logic, we should cancel the program and shutdown any football operations immediately.

If you really believe he is a horrible coach and would not thrive at Tennessee, call Finebaum today and make that case....

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I think what bothers me most about this whole argument is that so many of you are comparing Butch and Mullen as if they coach at comparable schools so their coaching records can be compared win to win and loss to loss. That to me can only mean that you have a pretty low opinion of the Tennessee program to think it's on par with Miss St.

What surprises me, Fade, is how many people still think that the comparison should be between Dan Mullen and Butch.

Butch shouldn't even be in the conversation, but those supporting Mullen as a candidate keep dragging Butch's name back in (usually as a straw man argument).

 

[golfballs]

I'm sorry you need so much help. The people I'm referring to are former players turned analysts, others whose livelihoods are devoted to analyzing SEC and college football.

You know, the peeps you think are geniuses when they offer a crumb of positive news to Butch or Tennessee.

Nobody who makes a living talking about sports, let alone ESS-EEE-SEE football is a genius. They get paid to bloviate have have no repercussions for being wrong. They're the equivalent of political pundits who thought there was no way Hillary could lose!

Besides, I don't even know why you act like you know me. I am not a frequent commenter on Butch or the coaching situation.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

LOL. You've lost your mind. Miss State has always been an all time losing school. Yet Mullen takes the job and is a full 11% better than the historical average. That is not what we have now. So in winning percentage alone, would be good at Tennessee.

Secondly, he develops players at the skill positions. We don't have that right now. So in his career developing players, he would be good at Tennessee.

Third, he has a 70% win percentage vs the SEC East. We don't have that now.

Fourth, he has a winning SEC record since 2013. We don't have that now.


You have to be a complete incompetent child to not understand why those 4 things should never happen at Miss State compared to Tennessee.

Last, your whole logic around a coaching change is centered on 4 guys who are never leaving their jobs with one exception to Dabo. He is replacing Saban.

Since we are never getting any of those 4 by your logic, we should cancel the program and shutdown any football operations immediately.

If you really believe he is a horrible coach and would not thrive at Tennessee, call Finebaum today and make that case....

You're still stuck at comparing Mullen to Tennessee today. Get off the Butch fixation.

And give up the "4 coaches" red herring. No one ever said the only candidates were those who had already won a national championship. You and Boston invented that red herring.

Tell me what evidence you see that Mullen can win championships. Ever. Anywhere.

 

[JMSqb11]

Tell me again the composite ranking of Dooley's last recruiting class? Because that's the class who were aware of his incompetence.

In his first year and a few months, everyone thought he was da bomb. Because his sarcastic wit appealed to the recruits and TV personalities alike. They ate it up.

That does not mean you automatically get handed a top 10 recruiting class each year simply for waring an orange shirt or tie.

For the record, Dooley averaged #13 Recruiting class over his three years..... And he did that destroying relationships......

Please tell me how Tennessee is hard to recruit too... We've had 7 years of incompetent coaching and recruiting has averaged in the top 10......

 

[JMSqb11]

What surprises me, Fade, is how many people still think that the comparison should be between Dan Mullen and Butch.

Butch shouldn't even be in the conversation, but those supporting Mullen as a candidate keep dragging Butch's name back in (usually as a straw man argument).

Dude, do you even read? This whole thread was a comparison of Butch and Mullen. Read the OP.

 

[fade route]

Nobody who makes a living talking about sports, let alone ESS-EEE-SEE football is a genius. They get paid to bloviate have have no repercussions for being wrong. They're the equivalent of political pundits who thought there was no way Hillary could lose!

Besides, I don't even know why you act like you know me. I am not a frequent commenter on Butch or the coaching situation.

Is the Miss St football program on the same level as UT football in terms of being a national brand, resources, ability to recruit, tradition, booster support, fundraising, fan base passion, etc? Yes or no?

 

[VFL-82-JP]

For the record, Dooley averaged #11 Recruiting class over his three years..... And he did that destroying relationships......

Please tell me how Tennessee is hard to recruit too... We've had 7 years of incompetent coaching and recruiting has averaged in the top 10......

Answer the question. Dooley's last recruiting class, how did it rank?

Or are you just refusing the question because you know it destroys your argument that Tennessee coaches fall out of bed with Top 10 recruiting classes in their pockets?

 

[JMSqb11]

You're still stuck at comparing Mullen to Tennessee today. Get off the Butch fixation.

And give up the "4 coaches" red herring. No one ever said the only candidates were those who had already won a national championship. You and Boston invented that red herring.

Tell me what proof you see Mullen can win championships. Ever. Anywhere.

This whole thread is a comparison to Butch.... If you wouldn't skip over the OP's comment, you would see that.

And I just listed why he would thrive here. He averages 11% winning percentage better than the program's all time win percentage while playing tougher competition than Tennessee has on the schedule.

So because he wins at a better % than the program's average and plays weaker competition, that is a recipe for success. Only a fool would think otherwise. But you are the one who keeps saying Butch has nothing to do with comparing Mullen even though this thread you're living in was founded on comparing the two.

 

[Grand Vol]

I'm not a huge fan of Mullen, but I do know that if he is coaching Tennessee last Saturday, the Vols win by three touchdowns. The same could be said for Mason.

Dear Lord, the stupid is spreading...

 

[JMSqb11]

Answer the question. Dooley's last recruiting class, how did it rank?

Or are you just refusing the question because you know it destroys your argument that Tennessee coaches fall out of bed with Top 10 recruiting classes in their pockets?

Dooley's Classes:

#7
#14
#19

Average turned out to be #13 class over the 3 years..... That is so horrible.

 

[Vols_74]

There is no doubt that UT has a vastly higher ceiling and superior talent level than Miss St.

It is also true that the same folks on here that down Butch because he lost to Dooley are the same that are defending Mullen because he is at Miss St.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

 

[volnbama_]

Tell me again the composite ranking of Dooley's last recruiting class? Because that's the class who were aware of his incompetence.

In his first year and a few months, everyone thought he was da bomb. Because his sarcastic wit appealed to the recruits and TV personalities alike. They ate it up.

That does not mean you automatically get handed a top 10 recruiting class each year simply for wearing an orange shirt or tie.

The only people that thought Dooley was the 'bomb' were people with their head up their arse. He was universally hated

 

[jkleno]

Butch is in year 5 and hasn't even beat a single West team. MSU might not beat Bama, but who does?

The man at Ohio State.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Dude, do you even read? This whole thread was a comparison of Butch and Mullen. Read the OP.

No, the OP and this thread in general are about one simple question: is Dan Mullen the right guy if we need another head coach?

It truly is that simple, much as some here want to complicate it.

Now, the OP tried to show that Dan Mullen is NOT the right guy, by showing that he's no better than Butch. The logic goes: Mullen and Butch are about the same, Butch wasn't good enough, so Mullen won't be good enough either.

Your failure to understand the nature of the OP comes from your misunderstanding the difference between "necessary" and "sufficient" conditions.

I'll try to explain:

A requirement can be "necessary" without being "sufficient". Such a requirement can be used to prove something inadequate, but isn't enough to prove it adequate.

An example: to get into college you have to have completed high school. That is a necessary condition. if you have not graduated from high school, don't bother applying for college, you won't get in.

But graduating from high school is not a sufficient condition for college admittance. You also have to have decent grades from high school, and a good enough SAT or ACT score, and maybe meet other conditions as well.

So high school diploma is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one for college entry.

Being better than Butch is a necessary condition to be our next coach, but it is not sufficient. If it can be shown that Dan is about the same as Butch (which is what the OP contends), then that alone would be proof that he's not the right guy. Because being "better than Butch" is necessary.

But Dan being better than Butch is not sufficient, because we want a championship caliber coach.

Do you see? The OP can bring up Butch to prove Mullen isn't the right guy. But proving the OP wrong isn't enough to show Mullen is the right guy, it just shows that Mullen is better than Butch.

Which is why I keep pointing out that we should leave Butch out of the conversation, if the goal is to determine whether Dan Mullen is good enough. Because Butch isn't a sufficient measuring stick.

I know all this logic talk is hurting your head. Try to hang in there.

 

[tbones0711]

Stay tuned. UT's next hires were born in the state of Tenn.and are offense-minded coaches. One will be HC and the other OC. No poster on Vol nation post anything about these two. It will be exciting.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Dooley's Classes:

#7
#14
#19

Average turned out to be #13 class over the 3 years..... That is so horrible.

So once the world knew what Dooley was like as a head coach, he pulled in a #19 class.

So much for wearing orange automatically getting you a Top 5 or Top 10 class, huh?

Apparently you actually have to be a good coach and good recruiter, too.

 

[Sarms58]

I like Mullen...I'm picking his team to beat the Ugly Dawgs this weekend...

Still doesn't mean he would give Tennessee a second look...let Jim McElwain continue his mediocrity and Mullen could be back in the SEC east...but as a Gator...

 

[JMSqb11]

No, the OP and this thread in general are about one simple question: is Dan Mullen the right guy if we need another head coach?

It truly is that simple, much as some here want to complicate it.

Now, the OP tried to show that Dan Mullen is NOT the right guy, by showing that he's no better than Butch. The logic goes: Mullen and Butch are about the same, Butch wasn't good enough, so Mullen won't be good enough either.

Your failure to understand the nature of the OP comes from your misunderstanding the difference between "necessary" and "sufficient" conditions.

I'll try to explain:

A requirement can be "necessary" without being "sufficient". Such a requirement can be used to prove something inadequate, but isn't enough to prove it adequate.

An example: to get into college you have to have completed high school. That is a necessary condition. if you have not graduated from high school, don't bother applying for college, you won't get in.

But graduating from high school is not a sufficient condition for college admittance. You also have to have decent grades from high school, and a good enough SAT or ACT score, and maybe meet other conditions as well.

So high school diploma is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one for college entry.

Being better than Butch is a necessary condition to be our next coach, but it is not sufficient. If it can be shown that Dan is about the same as Butch (which is what the OP contends), then that alone would be proof that he's not the right guy. Because being "better than Butch" is necessary.

But Dan being better than Butch is not sufficient, because we want a championship caliber coach.

Do you see? The OP can bring up Butch to prove Mullen isn't the right guy. But proving the OP wrong isn't enough to show Mullen is the right guy, it just shows that Mullen is better than Butch.

Which is why I keep pointing out that we should leave Butch out of the conversation, if the goal is to determine whether Dan Mullen is good enough. Because Butch isn't a sufficient measuring stick.

I know all this logic talk is hurting your head. Try to hang in there.

OP clearly stated “An objective look at his numbers suggests Mullen and Butch are cut from the same cloth. Average 8-4 consistent coaches.”

Please tell me how his whole thread and conversation wasn’t about comparing the two?

 

[VFL-82-JP]

The only people that thought Dooley was the 'bomb' were people with their head up their arse. He was universally hated

At the end, yes. By 2012. Not in 2010, though.

Go check the 2010 threads here on VN.com. I think you'll find a significant number of people who were excited about the new guy.

 

[JohnD13]

Stay tuned. UT's next hires were born in the state of Tenn.and are offense-minded coaches. One will be HC and the other OC. No poster on Vol nation post anything about these two. It will be exciting.

Nor do you Mr insider troll

 

[njvols]

Mississippi State's all time win percentage is 49%. Mullen is winning there at a 60% rate. 11 points higher than the average. He's doing that with horrible recruiting base and a horrible schedule.


Tennessee's all time win percentage is 68%.

That means Mullen would win here 79% of the time with an easier schedule and better recruiting. Game over.

If easy transference of math worked, coaching searches would be ALOT easier. Butch's win percentage at Cincinnati was .622 vs .499 all time.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

OP clearly stated “An objective look at his numbers suggests Mullen and Butch are cut from the same cloth. Average 8-4 consistent coaches.”

Please tell me how his whole thread and conversation wasn’t about comparing the two?

English is hard, I know. Can be a real pain to find meaning in a string of words.

But when the OP says:

Every volnation thread has “Hire Mullen”posts so I thought it would be interesting to take an objective look at Mullen:.....

...the central (though unstated) message of that post is, let's see if we should really "Hire Mullen."

Everything after that is the OP attempting to answer the question ("no") and prove his point ("no better than Butch").

Make no mistake: the central question of this entire thread, the entire reason it was created, was to explore this question: "Is Dan Mullen the right next head coach for Tennessee?"

Period.