Charlottesville white nationalists riots

#1,876
#1,876
I live less than twenty miles from the Chickamauga National Battlefield. I go there often. (I'll watch the eclipse from there next week.) It a large, beautiful and serene parcel of land. It has hundreds of monuments, statues, plaques and symbols of both the Union and Confederate armies. While mostly private money was used to pay for the statuary it was done so with the blessing of the US Government so that the history of the battle could be shared with people yet to come.

Are there any here who really believe we should go in there and remove all the Confederate material and just show and tell one side of the story? It doesn't matter that you agree with one side or the other. It only matters that you understand it.
 
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#1,877
#1,877
05_never_again said:
What about Thomas Jefferson? He wasn't a traitor, but he was a big slave owner who thought black people were subhuman. Dismantle the Jefferson Memorial starting today?
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Remind me of that time Thomas Jefferson took up arms against the United States. Also I know the history of how Jefferson became a slave owner and the deleted passage attacking slavery in his draft of the Declaration of Independence which he wrote.

He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian King of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where Men should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce. And that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people on whom he has obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed again the Liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another.
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#1,878
#1,878
MT LeConte said:
I live less than twenty miles from the Chickamauga National Battlefield. I go there often. (I'll watch the eclipse from there next week.) It a large, beautiful and serene parcel of land. It has hundreds of monuments, statues, plaques and symbols of both the Union and Confederate armies. While mostly private money was used to pay for the statuary it was done so with the blessing of the US Government so that the history of the battle could be shared with people yet to come.

Are there any here who really believe we should go in there and remove all the Confederate material and just show and tell one side of the story? It doesn't matter that you agree with one side or the other. It only matters that you understand it.
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I have been to that battlefield, along with many others. They all make my hair stand on end.
 
#1,879
#1,879
MT LeConte said:
I live less than twenty miles from the Chickamauga National Battlefield. I go there often. (I'll watch the eclipse from there next week.) It a large, beautiful and serene parcel of land. It has hundreds of monuments, statues, plaques and symbols of both the Union and Confederate armies. While mostly private money was used to pay for the statuary it was done so with the blessing of the US Government so that the history of the battle could be shared with people yet to come.

Are there any here who really believe we should go in there and remove all the Confederate material and just show and tell one side of the story? It doesn't matter that you agree with one side or the other. It only matters that you understand it.
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No one has said anything about removing the statues from the battlefields. But the ones like the statue of Nathen Bedford Forest do need to be removed.
 
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#1,880
#1,880
Septic said:
I was told he wasn't a politician, that's why we needed to hire him - to 'drain the swamp' of those politicians.

Are you saying we were, in fact - duped?
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Due to the past 60 years of politicians and lobbyists having the country in a choke hold, change requires time. You know, similar to that hope and change line for 8 years that amounted to no forward progress and multiple failed policies.
 
#1,882
#1,882
#1,884
#1,884
MT LeConte said:
I live less than twenty miles from the Chickamauga National Battlefield. I go there often. (I'll watch the eclipse from there next week.) It a large, beautiful and serene parcel of land. It has hundreds of monuments, statues, plaques and symbols of both the Union and Confederate armies. While mostly private money was used to pay for the statuary it was done so with the blessing of the US Government so that the history of the battle could be shared with people yet to come.

Are there any here who really believe we should go in there and remove all the Confederate material and just show and tell one side of the story? It doesn't matter that you agree with one side or the other. It only matters that you understand it.
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Get another like from me. On the bad side, your stance makes you a right wing racist Republican.

Seriously, this is just another case of political correctness run amuck.
 
#1,885
#1,885
1972 Grad said:
Would you mind telling me who the alt right is, and where I can finds a stated agenda for them? Is there a membership list somewhere, or is it just something you folks made up to lump your political opponents together to have someone to hate? Since you hate the alt right, I may want to join. Is there a website for them?
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Starting in the WH, Bannon and Miller. Trump has shades of it, though he so fricking stupid he doesn't realize it. David Duke. Alex Jones. Hannity when he's not on tv, and comes close when he is.

Start there. Get back to me.
 
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#1,886
#1,886
ClearwaterVol said:
A couple of things, those that vandalize statues should be charged. If the communities in which they stand want to vote to take them down... take them down. If they want to let them stand. So be it. I can understand both sides of this argument, let the process handle it.
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So lies the problem that one side will disagree with the outcome of a possible vote and they will begin to take the down the statue or destroy it, any way possible. All because that particular group didn't get their way. They do not believe in the process.
 
#1,887
#1,887
MT LeConte said:
Are there any here who really believe we should go in there and remove all the Confederate material and just show and tell one side of the story? It doesn't matter that you agree with one side or the other. It only matters that you understand it.
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In fairness to those on the other side of the argument, I don't think anyone is suggesting that anything having to do with the Confederacy should be removed from "the story." You can't tell the story of the Civil War without referencing the CSA and the figures associated with it.

What they appear to object to is erecting statues, monuments, etc. that memorialize and, in their opinion, romanticize figures that fought in a war against the United States to perpetuate slavery. They don't think that traitors and racists should be remembered in that way. OK.

My only question then is where does it end? As I've mentioned earlier there are both pre and post-Civil War figures who are lionized via monuments and memorials, have buildings named after them, etc. who were virulent racists or even owned slaves.

Does all of it have to go? Is the line drawn at traitors? Is it bad to have a monument to someone who was a racist and a traitor, but having a monument to a racist and a slaveholder is OK? If they were a racist and owned slaves, why are their monuments OK and not the Confederate ones?
 
#1,888
#1,888
carlos86 said:
Remind me of that time Thomas Jefferson took up arms against the United States. Also I know the history of how Jefferson became a slave owner and the deleted passage attacking slavery in his draft of the Declaration of Independence which he wrote.
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So you draw the line at "traitor" then?

It isn't the racism that bothers you (because TJ was a virulent racist and slaveowner) but treason? You're OK with a monument to a guy that owned people?
 
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#1,889
#1,889
So now other places are removing statues in the dead of night under threat of "if you don't we will". This is nice.

And a candidate for GA governor wants Stone Mountain erased.
 
#1,891
#1,891
Donald Trump: "You also had some very fine people on both sides."

Mitch McConnell: "There are no good neo-Nazis."

Game, set, and match, to Mr. McConnell.
 
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#1,893
#1,893
lawgator1 said:
Donald Trump: "You also had some very fine people on both sides."

Mitch McConnell: "There are no good neo-Nazis."

Game, set, and match, to Mr. McConnell.
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Obviously not all people against removal of the statue were neo-Nazi's.

The members of those groups get no sympathy. If someone shows up to the larger scene to protest the removal of the statue they shouldn't be treated as anything other than someone with an opinion on the issue. If said person advocates or joins those WS groups then the rules change.
 
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#1,895
#1,895
armchair said:
"at one time...." Yea, they were--but they chose to give up being U.S. officers and became Southern officers/generals who fought against America. That is kind of a big deal, partner.
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They didn't fight against America, they fought against the northern states and the federal government. Which BTW invaded.

We are a conglomerate of states that willingly joined together, that means these same states should be allowed to leave the union peacefully should they chose to do so.
 
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#1,896
#1,896
carlos86 said:
All of which were traitors and oath breakers. Thanks for making my point on why traitors don't deserve statues.
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They were not traitors. All resigned their federal commissions as is their right to do so.

Was Washington a traitor in your opinion?
 
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#1,899
#1,899
hog88 said:
They didn't fight against America, they fought against the northern states and the federal government. Which BTW invaded.

We are a conglomerate of states that willingly joined together, that means these same states should be allowed to leave the union peacefully should they chose to do so.
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I do find it ironic that the CalExit supporters believe they should freely be able to exit the Union and would likely be appalled (and fight) if they learned the Union would invade and prevent it.

I'm not one that considers the CW a war of Northern Aggression but it's funny how the view changes depending on which side of the coin you are on.
 
#1,900
#1,900
volinbham said:
Obviously not all people against removal of the statue were neo-Nazi's.

The members of those groups get no sympathy. If someone shows up to the larger scene to protest the removal of the statue they shouldn't be treated as anything other than someone with an opinion on the issue. If said person advocates or joins those WS groups then the rules change.
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I find it hard to believe that anyone was marching alongside guys with swastikas, arms extended, screaming racial epithets and Nazi slogans, just to register their displeasure with taking down some statutes.

The more I think about Trump's comment on that yesterday, the more ridiculous, ignorant, and misguided Trump appears. If that is even possible.
 
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