How well does Butch recruit?

The damage Dooley did to the program cannot be overstated. The talent level has increased dramatically since Butch got here. Dooley pissed a lot of high school coaches off to the point that UT wasn't even allowed on their campuses.

This class is probably the best recruiting job so far since Butch has got here. The 14 class I believe it was, very high ranked but built with mostly in state and legacy kids. This class is not only in state but has been better regional and nationally. Orange carpet day brought in the most blue chip athletes that we've had on campus in several years.
 
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Butch is a good recruiter, not great. Tennessee is one of the easiest places in the country try to recruit to and top 15 classes should be relatively easy.

Tennessee is not one of the easiest places to recruit to. We dont have as much in state talent as most other schools in the conference. Our instate talent level has imoroved recently but we are still mainly recruiting GA, FL, LA. We make up for it with tradition and facilities, but a lot of kids just want to stay home.
 
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Not true.

And here's something every Vol fan should think about....in '17 we signed 28 players - just about normal for us.

So in a normal year for us we have a roster that is 1/3 true freshmen. That's a recipe for failure.

Clemson on the other hand could only sign a class of 14 players - they had had very little attrition so their roster was stocked with experienced players. And of course they beat Bama.



Yes, but they also get some 4 stars... The main thing is Stanford Washington and Penn State, USC to name a few, all have less attrition than UT.

1. All multi-year personnel rosters are pyramidal. True in universities (academic classes in general, and athletes in specific), true in business, true in the military. You always draw big, knowing that attrition will follow. My West Point class numbered about 1,400 when we entered beast barracks. We graduated less than 900. Extreme example, but it happens everywhere, all the time.

2. Clemson only signing 14 is actually somewhat unhealthy. When that class becomes juniors and seniors, they might be down to single digits. As long as the class ahead of them and the class behind them are both robust, no big deal. But two small classes like that in a row spell trouble down the road. You want every class to number 20+.

3. You have the numbers on attrition for the Vols and these other colleges? I'd love to see them. We talk about large attrition rates in our program, but I've never seen anyone actually do the research to see whether it's true or not.
 
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The damage Dooley did to the program cannot be overstated. The talent level has increased dramatically since Butch got here. Dooley pissed a lot of high school coaches off to the point that UT wasn't even allowed on their campuses.

This class is probably the best recruiting job so far since Butch has got here. The 14 class I believe it was, very high ranked but built with mostly in state and legacy kids. This class is not only in state but has been better regional and nationally. Orange carpet day brought in the most blue chip athletes that we've had on campus in several years.

i know you're not doing this, i think anyway, but it used to be we might say "in state" in regards to TN high school products with an almost "oh well" type attitude.

but the reality is, the core of this class is, and should be, in state. there's too much quality right now for it not to be, and while i'm excited about this weekend's haul, i'm more excited that butch and co have been able to get commits from most of the top in state talent.

Emerson still technically undecided, but he's in all likelihood a silent to TN...if you believe that, then we've locked up 4 of the top 5 TN HS prospects (that's be back to back years we got the #1 recruit in the state), and 6 of the top 10. and there's some that believe we have a shot at flipping another top 10 guy before signing day, and we're still favored in another 2-3 of the top 20 prospects.

when it's all said and done, we could wind up with 10-12 of the top 20 prospects in state. and while in most years, up to the last few, that might not mean much as most of those kids historically wouldn't necessarily be takes by TN or any other SEC contender, it does this yeas cause so many of these kids are being recruited by top programs, not just in the SEC, but nationally.
 
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I absolutely believe this.

I also believe there are a few that will complain about anyone that expresses legitimate criticism. I've seen it.

In my opinion "some" needs to be replaced with actual names more often.

I can see where people may have looked at the Appy St game as opening season gitters. And, maybe carry that over to the first of the Va Tech game.

But, nobody can say they were at ease with the Ohio game. Then how Fla and Ga played out you had to know it wasn't going to last. Everyone knew the other foot was going to drop and when it did, there were more than a few that knew we had problems. Maybe "some" needs to be replaced with "alot".
 
Tennessee is not one of the easiest places to recruit to. We dont have as much in state talent as most other schools in the conference. Our instate talent level has imoroved recently but we are still mainly recruiting GA, FL, LA. We make up for it with tradition and facilities, but a lot of kids just want to stay home.

That's an old truth, no longer valid.

Just under half of every Vols roster is in-state talent. It is more accurate to say that we're mainly recruiting Tennessee, with Georgia, North Carolina and Florida as robust backup sources.

Tennessee is actually one of the top-10 states for high school football talent on a per capita basis. Per capita is a better indicator than raw numbers, because it goes directly to efficiency of recruiting. So Texas may have a huge number of FBS recruits, but they're spread out over so many high schools in so many towns and counties that you're better off expending your limited recruiting efforts in places where the talent is more densely gathered. Tennessee is one of the 11 places with talent more densely gathered than Texas. A lot of the SEC footprint is densely packed with talent.

https://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/sec-football/sec-states-produce-tons-of-fbs-talent/

Bottom line is, the days of us being able to say "our recruiting situation is harder than everyone else, we have to walk uphill in the snow 5 miles to get a recruit, both ways!" are over. Tennessee is competitive for talent, these days. And I think we ought to celebrate and embrace that new truth.

Go Vols!


EDIT: Current roster looks like this for numbers:
-- TN - 38
-- GA - 18
-- FL - 9
-- NC - 6
all other states less than 5, looks like
 
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1. All multi-year personnel rosters are pyramidal. True in universities (academic classes in general, and athletes in specific), true in business, true in the military. You always draw big, knowing that attrition will follow. My West Point class numbered about 1,400 when we entered beast barracks. We graduated less than 900. Extreme example, but it happens everywhere, all the time.

2. Clemson only signing 14 is actually somewhat unhealthy. When that class becomes juniors and seniors, they might be down to single digits. As long as the class ahead of them and the class behind them are both robust, no big deal. But two small classes like that in a row spell trouble down the road. You want every class to number 20+.

3. You have the numbers on attrition for the Vols and these other colleges? I'd love to see them. We talk about large attrition rates in our program, but I've never seen anyone actually do the research to see whether it's true or not.

there was a thread about this some time back. i think it was just for SEC schools, and iirc, our attrition rate was a little more than 30%, which put us in the bottom 1/3 of the conf.

i'll see if i can find it. it was relative to the most current classes signed, whenever the thread was posted.
 
there was a thread about this some time back. i think it was just for SEC schools, and iirc, our attrition rate was a little more than 30%, which put us in the bottom 1/3 of the conf.

i'll see if i can find it. it was relative to the most current classes signed, whenever the thread was posted.

Thanks, Jake.
 
Hmmm..... Jones developed Kamara better than Saban though. Guess we'll dismiss that since it doesn't fit our argument.

How can you say that? Because Kamara left Bama? Maybe, but would he have seen the field at Bama with all of their depth at RB.

And had the Hurd situation not developed like it did would Kamara have seen the field as much as he did at UT?
 
Thanks, Jake.
http://www.volnation.com/forum/tenn...9-looking-pretty-sad.html?highlight=attrition

the numbers are interesting.

they're even more interesting with some context. i think our attrition rate is too high in general. however, when CBJ got here, he loaded up on the 1st couple of classes, knowing at least 1/3 weren't going to make it. just part of it. but he needed #'s regardless. the 2012 class in and of itself was a hodge podge, and really, considering the time spent, what we got was probably what we should have expected, as over 2/3 of that class experienced attrition.

as his tenure has gone on, the attrition rate seemingly hasn't slowed down, though the last two classes show to have settled down quite nicely, is that the start of another, better trend? time will tell.

but just looking at comparisons since CBJ has been hired, the overall attrition rate is 35%, tied for last in the SEC with USCe, with a&m next at 32.2%. EVERYONE else in the SEC is below 30%.

that said, it's not a coincidence that the bulk of the attrition came at the expense of CBJ's 1st two years here, where those two years combined are nearly 56%.

i wondered about the volume of signees, as some mentioned that we signed more than anyone else, so i just looked at all classes in the list LWS provided that had 30 or more signees. also no coincidence, those 30+ signee classes have way higher rates than the normal 22-26 signee type classes. virtually every school in the SEC that had these classes were at, near or above 50% attrition rates......except.........Tennessee, who had 3 such classes with an attrition rate of less than 30%, which is by far the best in the SEC, by nearly 20 points.

it should be noted that includes the 2015 class, so that # could change as time goes on.

Bama had 2 @53%
ARK 3 @ 49.5%
AU 2 @ 54.8%
FL had 0
GA had 2 @ 45%
KY had 1 @57%
LSU had 0
OM had 3 @ 48.5%
MSU had 2 @ 54.7%
MO had 0
USCe had 2 @ 46%
TN had 3 @ 29.8%
a&m had 1 @ 63%
Vandy had 0

what i get out of all this is we have experienced higher than normal attrition, but it does appear to be, to a certain extent, "normal" for programs transitioning, and those that have to sign large classes, just to get the overall depth up to par.

all that said, if the attrition rates stay where they are now, around that 24% range, then what we've seen the last two years, is probably more a result of transition, pure #'s, and just plain needing bodies early on, and not necessarily "how it's going to be".

but it's still fairly early for the 2015, and especially for the 2016 classes, so we should pay attention to see what, if anything transpires this season and next.

but there's absolutely no way we can stay at 35% and remain competitive for very long. it can't be perpetual rebuilding.

so, is it an issue? yes, it most certainly is. but i don't know that it's an issue that's going to continue to fester and manifest itself like it has the last 2 years, if current trends hold up over the next couple/three years.
 
i know you're not doing this, i think anyway, but it used to be we might say "in state" in regards to TN high school products with an almost "oh well" type attitude.

but the reality is, the core of this class is, and should be, in state. there's too much quality right now for it not to be, and while i'm excited about this weekend's haul, i'm more excited that butch and co have been able to get commits from most of the top in state talent.

Emerson still technically undecided, but he's in all likelihood a silent to TN...if you believe that, then we've locked up 4 of the top 5 TN HS prospects (that's be back to back years we got the #1 recruit in the state), and 6 of the top 10. and there's some that believe we have a shot at flipping another top 10 guy before signing day, and we're still favored in another 2-3 of the top 20 prospects.

when it's all said and done, we could wind up with 10-12 of the top 20 prospects in state. and while in most years, up to the last few, that might not mean much as most of those kids historically wouldn't necessarily be takes by TN or any other SEC contender, it does this yeas cause so many of these kids are being recruited by top programs, not just in the SEC, but nationally.
Nah, I love for the core to be in state talent but you have to have the best from your own state and then some regional kids added in. We've done better in Florida lately and I believe we're going to start doing better in Georgia as well since Kirby seems to be a little lazy on the recruiting trail. I'm just saying the kids we've pulled have had offers from traditional powers and we're winning some of these kids over Bama, Southern Cal, and Clemson. Talent is moving in the right direction now.
 
That's some great analysis, Jake, thanks.

If I read it correctly, you were saying that the huge gulps we took early in CBJ's transition, those first two classes, were followed by matching big attrition. And that, in the context of huge transitional classes, those attrition rates were actually quite tame (comparing to other SEC schools that had to take on huge classes to make up for an earlier lack).

And that it's too early to tell, now that we're down to "normal" sized classes (the '15 and '16 classes...now with '17 joining them), whether our attrition is above normal, below normal, or pretty much average. Only time will tell.

Did I read all that right?
 
Didn't we have 6 drafted this past draft? Isn't this Butch's first class?

I mean criticize the guy for his mistakes on the field but let's be fair and give him credit where it's due.

2013 was his first class. I give credit for him getting them here, but as a developer, he's not good.
 
Nah, I love for the core to be in state talent but you have to have the best from your own state and then some regional kids added in. We've done better in Florida lately and I believe we're going to start doing better in Georgia as well since Kirby seems to be a little lazy on the recruiting trail. I'm just saying the kids we've pulled have had offers from traditional powers and we're winning some of these kids over Bama, Southern Cal, and Clemson. Talent is moving in the right direction now.

TN and GA have been the two biggest states for us. and we're doing better in FL.

the best news about this current class is that we're getting the bigger names to stay in state. that has to bode well for future classes. the mid state will be huge for TN recruiting, and you flip a coin in West TN.

GA and FL will always continue to produce, all those kids can't go to GA, AUB, FL, FSU and Miami....and we have coaches on the roster now that can go in to FL with a reputation, and relationships, already intact.

there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to expect this kind of recruiting going forward....

still have ?'s all over the field production wise, but we're getting some really positive answers on the recruiting trail.
 
That's some great analysis, Jake, thanks.

If I read it correctly, you were saying that the huge gulps we took early in CBJ's transition, those first two classes, were followed by matching big attrition. And that, in the context of huge transitional classes, those attrition rates were actually quite tame (comparing to other SEC schools that had to take on huge classes to make up for an earlier lack).

And that it's too early to tell, now that we're down to "normal" sized classes (the '15 and '16 classes...now with '17 joining them), whether our attrition is above normal, below normal, or pretty much average. Only time will tell.

Did I read all that right?

yep, that's it. it has absolutely been an issue. but it may not be the way it's going to be going forward if current trends continue....time will tell.

and based on what we're seeing so far from last year's class, and they way this class is being built, i think it's fair to expect that rate to fall in to "normal" ranges going forward.

it won't ever go away, and i know you know that. it just can't be 35% all the time. 20% is normal and manageable. 35% is constant rebuilding.
 
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2013 was his first class. I give credit for him getting them here, but as a developer, he's not good.
We had six players go pro last year which was one behind Ohio State and tied with Clemson. So are we to say Meyer and Dabo aren't good developers of talent? Our offense put up historic numbers, defense had a ton of injuries but most of those great players still got drafted. So I'm seeing players coming in and getting prepared for the pro game. Am I missing something or is that not the definition of development?

Again I'll reiterate I hate some of the on field results but I'm not seeing a lack of development.
 
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We had six players go pro last year which was one behind Ohio State and tied with Clemson. So are we to say Meyer and Dabo aren't good developers of talent? Our offense put up historic numbers, defense had a ton of injuries but most of those great players still got drafted. So I'm seeing players coming in and getting prepared for the pro game. Am I missing something or is that not the definition of development?

Again I'll reiterate I hate some of the on field results but I'm not seeing a lack of development.

if there wasn't, i don't think you'd of seen the turnover on the staff we just went thru.

maybe better said, CBJ saw it. and did something about it.
 
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yep, that's it. it has absolutely been an issue. but it may not be the way it's going to be going forward if current trends continue....time will tell.

and based on what we're seeing so far from last year's class, and they way this class is being built, i think it's fair to expect that rate to fall in to "normal" ranges going forward.

it won't ever go away, and i know you know that. it just can't be 35% all the time. 20% is normal and manageable. 35% is constant rebuilding.
Larry could say better than myself but I think that classes with higher numbers always have more attrition. The talent gap kind of forced us to take heavy numbers. I doubt we would care if Butch was winning sec titles but granted we have had some attrition issues.
 
We had six players go pro last year which was one behind Ohio State and tied with Clemson. So are we to say Meyer and Dabo aren't good developers of talent? Our offense put up historic numbers, defense had a ton of injuries but most of those great players still got drafted. So I'm seeing players coming in and getting prepared for the pro game. Am I missing something or is that not the definition of development?

Again I'll reiterate I hate some of the on field results but I'm not seeing a lack of development.

Our lowly ranked defense says it all last year. Why didn't we have any good linebackers after Kirkland and JRM?
 
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