Butch to allow 7 on 7

#102
#102
chargervol said:
Wait, are you suggesting that there may be more involved than posters on VN that scream "I love mediocrity"?

Holy crap. If true, this could throw off the entire balance of the universe. At least for those convinced that 200 VN posters decide who Haslam chooses and what he will pay.

Anarchy.
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Mediocrity is so warm and inviting. Jump in! :huggy:
 
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#104
#104
sjt18 said:
And I am sure that I just misunderstand the posts of those whose reaction to any and all criticism is to deflect, excuse, or dismiss in an obvious effort to act as if failures aren't really failures but just "reasonable expectations". I am also sure I misunderstand those who make excuses that DIRECTLY imply that UT should not expect more. If you have not seen them.... you aren't looking.
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Tisk tisk,
You're changing subjects.
I see them just fine. I also accept that they have different opinions. I also understand that they are in the minority. And to the actual subject, I understand they control nothing.


Remember, the subject is not are there sunshine Pumpers? It was - is that the cause of our issues as you implied earlier with " because too many fans accept mediocrity"

That accusation is false and that was the actual subject of our conversation. 200 VN posters accepting this or that has absolutely zero influence on who we hire or when we fire them.
 
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#106
#106
chargervol said:
Tisk tisk,
You're changing subjects.
I see them just fine. I also accept that they have different opinions. I also understand that they are in the minority. And to the actual subject, I understand they control nothing.


Remember, the subject is not are there sunshine Pumpers? It was - is that the cause of our issues as you implied earlier with " because too many fans accept mediocrity"

That accusation is false and that was the actual subject of our conversation. 200 VN posters accepting this or that has absolutely zero influence on who we hire or when we fire them.
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Is it false? You don't even need a "majority". You just need enough of them to convince the majority to be "patient"... to buy the excuses. Maybe if it goes south this fall you and others will get the pitchforks out. Right now, it is a clear majority of those who post here and probably a larger majority of all Vol fans who are willing to ignore the deficiency patterns of Jones over the last 4 years. It isn't that he doesn't do good things. He does. But he has done some things consistently poorly that will prevent him from leading UT beyond this point if they do not change.

As for "influence", the AD seemed to think the opinions of 100,000 (and presumably the millions of other Vol fans) matter. He seemed to tip his hat in one of the recent articles to the fans' expectations.

Fans definitely impact when a guy leaves and enough of us can have an impact on the expectations. The fan impact on who is hired is that the AD's job is at stake if he doesn't select someone good.

This is a fan's game. Fan's drive it. Otherwise, it would be club football and no one would get a scholarship to do it.
 
#107
#107
sjt18 said:
Is it false? You don't even need a "majority". You just need enough of them to convince the majority to be "patient".
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Nothing more to discuss. This is where we always part ways. You always say something that *at least sounds as if,
everyone else is some kind of sheep led by others.
People have their own thoughts. If enough feel something good is there, maybe that is their own thoughts.

I just don't believe they are controlled by sunshine pumpers or that they need some elites to show them the way.
"Imo" is a hell of a thing. You can believe what you wish without the automatic assumption that all in disagreement are ill informed.
 
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#108
#108
I understand people are wondering why, in a somewhat negative light. I wonder if it's a matter of trial and error/what works. Sure that opens up different topics of debate. Just a thought about it. either way...... Hopefully it's something more on the helpful side vs anything else.
 
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#109
#109
Maybe if sjt's contingents were more likeable they would hold more sway with the undecided followers and not lose them to the mediocrity embracing sunshine pumpers? But if likeability requires one to not use condescending phraseology is it really worth it? :)
 
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#110
#110
chargervol said:
Nothing more to discuss. This is where we always part ways. You always say something that *at least sounds as if,
everyone else is some kind of sheep led by others.
People have their own thoughts. If enough feel something good is there, maybe that is their own thoughts.

I just don't believe they are controlled by sunshine pumpers or that they need some elites to show them the way.
"Imo" is a hell of a thing. You can believe what you wish without the automatic assumption that all in disagreement are ill informed.
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And the people said.... Amen.
 
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#111
#111
The seven on seven thing comes up about every six eight months. Last time it came up I looked back through the Internet post and found out what Butch really said about seven on seven. He said it was about a breakeven proposition he really wasn't against 7v7 but wasn't for it either. He said he could see some situations where it would be a benefit and others where it would not. He was worried about injuries coming just before fall camp. If a player is injured just before fall camp it him behind the whole season. So I don't think Butch is changed his opinion on anything. I think he just sees a situation where some seven on seven work might be beneficial. I don't know where people get the information that all the other teams play seven on seven during the summer, this just isn't true. Almost half the coaches have the same opinion as Butch.
 
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#113
#113
VOLinPD said:
Is Butch learning from his mistakes (i.e. assistant coach/staff loyalty, S&C emphasis, etc.)? If he is, that's a great sign for a coach.
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I actually like to think Currie had a sit down with Butch and asked him "Hey coach, what's with this no 7 on 7 horse****?"
 
#114
#114
chargervol said:
Nothing more to discuss. This is where we always part ways. You always say something that *at least sounds as if,
everyone else is some kind of sheep led by others.
People have their own thoughts. If enough feel something good is there, maybe that is their own thoughts.

I just don't believe they are controlled by sunshine pumpers or that they need some elites to show them the way.
"Imo" is a hell of a thing. You can believe what you wish without the automatic assumption that all in disagreement are ill informed.
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Wow. You got your feelings over a strong opinion expressed in disagreemt with YOUR strong opinions?

You are just as guilty of the bold as anyone else. To quote a great contributor here... "lighten up". Kind of funny that someone who considers it just "college sports"... that you'd get offended so easily.
 
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#115
#115
I wonder if in addition to potential injuries, he is worried about the players running routes and coverages without coaches there to correct mistakes. Players developing bad habits over the summer that have to be corrected in the fall. Just speculation.
 
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#116
#116
UtahVol said:
I wonder if in addition to potential injuries, he is worried about the players running routes and coverages without coaches there to correct mistakes. Players developing bad habits over the summer that have to be corrected in the fall. Just speculation.
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I'm pretty sure they can have volunteers film the sessions... and I don't think film room coaching is restricted. Even if it were, it would be almost impossible to police.

Plus, you have Jennings, Dormady, Kelly, Gaulden, et al with plenty of experience to coach each other and the young guys. They know the playbook and the pattern trees.

As has been mentioned, almost no one else in CFB has any of those concerns.
 
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#117
#117
sjt18 said:
Shula was fired. Dinardo was fired. Paul Hackett was fired. Zook was fired. Hoke was fired. Bill O'Brien was fired.

And while outwardly amiable... I have read that Beamer really didn't want to resign. He just handled it much better than Fulmer.

You have to counterbalance that with the poor play that put them in a bad position to start with.... and the causes for that poor play which include poor game strategy.

So he beat UF and UGA... in games where UT was favored and that gave him credit to balance losing two games that should have been laughers?

I'm not trying to goad you... but do you know how many times that has been posted here since the end of year 2 and especially after year 3? Maybe not you... but if Jones finishes 7-5 and is retained... there will be someone here saying that the "time to perform is 2018"... six years is long enough.

You have to love UT fans for being longsuffering. But one of the reasons we have to be longsuffering is that we are WAY too willing to suffer mediocre performance for a long time.
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And we will continue to be long-suffering if we keep cycling through coaches. You mentioned earlier that Jones has showed any aspect of being a championship coach and that is wrong. The recruiting is there, and now that those recruits are in place, he has to have them stay healthy or at least most of them stay healthy in order to achieve success. If Bama lost Humphrey, Allen, Foster, and Anderson for large chunks of the season they wouldn't have been near as good of a defense. The players have to be on the field to make a difference. Butch has gone out of his comfort zone and made personnel and coaching changes for the betterment of the team. Lets let those changes, hopefully, combine with a healthy season before we make a conclusion.
 
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#118
#118
Burger said:
7 on 7 is practically routes against air. There is no pass rush, so it doesn't simulate anything. I actually think with QD that it'll be insignificant.
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Yea, because the QB's and WR's getting more practice throwing and catching could have no benefit for the offense. Wow, just wow.
 
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#119
#119
The Artful Dodger said:
And we will continue to be long-suffering if we keep cycling through coaches.
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Yeah... better to tolerate mediocrity than to take a chance that the next guy can take you to the next level, right? If your goal is mediocrity then you don't do anything about a coach producing mediocre results. If your goal is championships... you NEVER tolerate mediocre results.

You mentioned earlier that Jones has showed any aspect of being a championship coach and that is wrong. The recruiting is there, and now that those recruits are in place, he has to have them stay healthy or at least most of them stay healthy in order to achieve success.
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You have either twisted my words or assigned something to me that I did not say. I have MANY times said Jones has done some good things. However there are patterns in his coaching going back to year one that indicate he is not the coach to take UT to championships. You can't lose to an inferior Vandy roster in year 1 with a bowl on the line for instance. That has been a repeating pattern.

UT has had high attrition since Jones arrived. Jones has had higher than average injury rates and is just now changing staff and philosophy in S&C. Jones' game management problems are well documented. For two years, Jones pushed what seemed to be excessive levels of physicality and fatigue (pace) in fall camp. UT had lots of August injuries. Last year, he seemed to swing to the opposite extreme allowing Hurd and others to take days off on their own discretion. UT had more injuries during the season. These are real problems that seem to continue to plague UT even as the good things Jones HAS done have resulted in better results.

You could say that Jones has lead the team half way up the mountain... but that isn't a guarantee he can take them the rest of the way. That may take someone else... perhaps even someone else who wouldn't have been able to rebuild the program from where it was to where it is.


If Bama lost Humphrey, Allen, Foster, and Anderson for large chunks of the season they wouldn't have been near as good of a defense. The players have to be on the field to make a difference. Butch has gone out of his comfort zone and made personnel and coaching changes for the betterment of the team. Lets let those changes, hopefully, combine with a healthy season before we make a conclusion.
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With all due respect, we've heard "before we make a conclusion" pretty much any time a Jones shortcoming has been revealed starting the very first year. First it wasn't his system then it wasn't his players then they weren't mature enough then they weren't deep enough... There's always going to be a next excuse followed by "before we make a conclusion".

There are reasons Bama didn't lose those players... and others as to why it wouldn't have mattered that much if they had. They have depth. They have a consistent philosophy and method for developing and maintaining the health of players. These aren't incidental things. They are the direct results of Saban's actions and choices.
 
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#120
#120
sjt18 said:
Yeah... better to tolerate mediocrity than to take a chance that the next guy can take you to the next level, right? If your goal is mediocrity then you don't do anything about a coach producing mediocre results. If your goal is championships... you NEVER tolerate mediocre results.

You have either twisted my words or assigned something to me that I did not say. I have MANY times said Jones has done some good things. However there are patterns in his coaching going back to year one that indicate he is not the coach to take UT to championships. You can't lose to an inferior Vandy roster in year 1 with a bowl on the line for instance. That has been a repeating pattern.

UT has had high attrition since Jones arrived. Jones has had higher than average injury rates and is just now changing staff and philosophy in S&C. Jones' game management problems are well documented. For two years, Jones pushed what seemed to be excessive levels of physicality and fatigue (pace) in fall camp. UT had lots of August injuries. Last year, he seemed to swing to the opposite extreme allowing Hurd and others to take days off on their own discretion. UT had more injuries during the season. These are real problems that seem to continue to plague UT even as the good things Jones HAS done have resulted in better results.

You could say that Jones has lead the team half way up the mountain... but that isn't a guarantee he can take them the rest of the way. That may take someone else... perhaps even someone else who wouldn't have been able to rebuild the program from where it was to where it is.


With all due respect, we've heard "before we make a conclusion" pretty much any time a Jones shortcoming has been revealed starting the very first year. First it wasn't his system then it wasn't his players then they weren't mature enough then they weren't deep enough... There's always going to be a next excuse followed by "before we make a conclusion".

There are reasons Bama didn't lose those players... and others as to why it wouldn't have mattered that much if they had. They have depth. They have a consistent philosophy and method for developing and maintaining the health of players. These aren't incidental things. They are the direct results of Saban's actions and choices.
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And uninformed fans like yourself are always going to assume that there is another Saban waiting in the wings while we toil with this middling coach. Truth is plenty of programs in the country would like to have a coach the caliber of Butch and he has enough good qualities to offer that he should be given another opportunity, considering the massive amount of personnel losses on defense last year. The team was 5-0 and giving up 23 ppg before injuries mounted and was 3-4 giving up 33 ppg after injuries mounted. (And that includes giving up 0 to Tenn tech).

It's not an excuse if facts and stats back it up. The reason the teamed swooned down the stretch last year was injuries.
 
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#122
#122
Burger said:
This will make no difference on anything.
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Hey, it's a change from Jones' status quo that hasn't allowed something that pretty much every other school in country does.....the same status quo that has given us, on average, a below average passing game during Jones' tenure. Surely letting the QBs and WRs more time to gain familiarity, timing and trust can do nothing but help.
 
#123
#123
The Artful Dodger said:
And uninformed fans like yourself are always going to assume that there is another Saban waiting in the wings while we toil with this middling coach.
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:lolabove: Nice comeback. Ignore the weaknesses Jones has shown and counter with "there's no Saban waiting for the job".

I have had people argue with me that very few people here support mediocrity or want anything less than championships. Your post is the perfect illustration of why those folks are wrong. You "wish" Jones and UT could have a championship... but you don't expect it. You don't see it as worth the risks of having high standards and sticking to them.

Truth is plenty of programs in the country would like to have a coach the caliber of Butch and he has enough good qualities to offer that he should be given another opportunity, considering the massive amount of personnel losses on defense last year. The team was 5-0 and giving up 23 ppg before injuries mounted and was 3-4 giving up 33 ppg after injuries mounted. (And that includes giving up 0 to Tenn tech).
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And the injuries did that because.... Almost every reason is indirectly or directly the result of a Jones decision or action.

I really don't care about "plenty" of programs who would be happy with mediocrity. I expect the HC of UT football to be a championship caliber coach... and to coach like it. I would LOVE for that to be Jones... but want him gone if it isn't. It is that simple.

It's not an excuse if facts and stats back it up. The reason the teamed swooned down the stretch last year was injuries.
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It is an excuse when you ignore the fact that Jones built the roster, managed practice, chose his coaches, and led the staff who developed and coached the players.

Injuries aren't an "out" in year 4 and especially when you had excessive injuries for 2 years prior as well. Injuries are even less of an excuse when you either do not recognize or else tolerate a S&C staff that isn't getting it done. Even less when in year 4 you're still as thin with SEC talent at LB and DT as UT was.... you can throw CB in there too.
 
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#124
#124
On the "whose next" question... there are a TON of guys who can give you mediocre results. There's also the next Meyer or Saban out there waiting for the right chance in the right job. The timing was wrong but I would have LOVED to have seen Fuente as UT's HC.

If you fire your mediocre coach (assuming Jones doesn't turn the corner) then you at least have a shot at something better. If you don't... not only will you not get something better... you are all but certain to watch a decline similar to the one that ended Fulmer's career. There is no treading water... in part because even mediocre players think they're worthy of playing on a good team. You just can't get the players unless you produce the results.
 
#125
#125
sjt18 said:
On the "whose next" question... there are a TON of guys who can give you mediocre results. There's also the next Meyer or Saban out there waiting for the right chance in the right job. The timing was wrong but I would have LOVED to have seen Fuente as UT's HC.

If you fire your mediocre coach (assuming Jones doesn't turn the corner) then you at least have a shot at something better. If you don't... not only will you not get something better... you are all but certain to watch a decline similar to the one that ended Fulmer's career. There is no treading water... in part because even mediocre players think they're worthy of playing on a good team. You just can't get the players unless you produce the results.
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But you also have a shot at getting something worse. I know you know that. That is what a lot of people are afraid of, especially with our record on hiring coaches, and for now they had rather see if Butch can turn that corner, and he's done some good things. Some think he can, you call them Butch apologists and Butch worshippers. It's crazy.

Everyone has an opinion.
 
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