USA Today: What to like about No. 18 Tennessee

#202
#202
johnrlansford said:
or maybe Saban is extraordinary and everyone else is just good. You can't always judge by the top and the bottom the middle is usually the median range!
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The gap between Bama and everyone else has grown as guys like Meyer, Richt, and Miles have left the conference. Their replacements simply aren't as good, so the "median range" is lower than it was. Saban was the best coach in the conference, but there used to be other guys in the conversation. Now there is no conversation.
 
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#203
#203
johnrlansford said:
or maybe Saban is extraordinary and everyone else is just good. You can't always judge by the top and the bottom the middle is usually the median range!
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If everyone else is just good, then at least one other coach would be consistently posing a threat to his dominance (and failing, but at least posing a threat). I suppose Les Miles was that at one point, and for a fleeting moment it appeared like Malzahn might be. But there is no coach that poses a year in, year out threat to him. Hell, even the coach that beat him twice, almost three times in a row wasn't ever a threat to Alabama, and now that program is a dumpster fire.

The Big 10, for example, has much better coaching depth. Meyer is at the top, but they have people like Harbaugh, Franklin and Dantonio after that. Paul Chryst is a good coach and always overachieves. Even the coaches of the more mediocre schools (Ferentz, Fitzgerald) have more impressive track records than the mediocre guys in the SEC.
 
#208
#208
johnrlansford said:
yeah but my point is if we had or do hire someone with the record like Saban was at Michigan State the fan base would go crazy and want everyone fired from the president down....
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no more crazy than they did when we hired dooley and jones.
 
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#209
#209
jakez4ut said:
no more crazy than they did when we hired dooley and jones.
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Butch was:
8-6
8-5
11-2
At Central Michigan

And:
4-8
10-3
9-3 At Cincinnati

Hardly comparable, and Dooley was a head scratcher for the entire nation!!!!

Saban was only above .500 2 times in 5 years.
Butch was above .500 5 of his 6 years!!!!
 
#210
#210
jakez4ut said:
you also have to consider what LSU was at the time. they weren't this version of LSU. they fired Gerry Dinardo. it wasn't like they were replacing a HOF'er. they went out and got a 2nd tier Big 10 head coach that had NFL experience.

at the time, not knowing what we know now, it was a pretty safe hire. everybody thought Saban was a "good" coach at the time. no one knew he would become what he has. that's a crap shoot.

but it was a solid hire back then for a program that was muddling around "pretty good", but not "great", and definitely not in the same stratosphere that LSU reached over the 15 years or so.

point being, they hired a guy that was in a BCS conference that demonstrated program building in similar circumstances. they brought him to a program that had way more resources at the time, and the rest is history.

there's not guaranteed road map on these hires. FL hired Urban Meyer from a WAC school, and that worked out. USC hired Pete Caroll after flaming out in the NFL.

Ohio St hired Jim Tressel from Youngstown St.

FSU did the coach in waiting with Jimbo. Clemson promoted Dabo and waited.

Bama went thru Mike Shula, Mike dubose, Dennis Franchione, Mike Price before getting Saban.

there's no road map that says 1+1=2. but it does start with deciding what you want to be, and making decisions based on that purpose.

not sure we've fallen in that category the past decade or so. we'll see if that changes with Currie....and Butch for that matter.
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Good stuff.
 
#212
#212
johnrlansford said:
Butch was:
8-6
8-5
11-2
At Central Michigan

And:
4-8
10-3
9-3 At Cincinnati

Hardly comparable, and Dooley was a head scratcher for the entire nation!!!!

Saban was only above .500 2 times in 5 years.
Butch was above .500 5 of his 6 years!!!!
Click to expand...
CMU/Cincy vs. Michigan State.

hardly comparable is correct.
 
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#214
#214
johnrlansford said:
Butch was:
8-6
8-5
11-2
At Central Michigan

And:
4-8
10-3
9-3 At Cincinnati

Hardly comparable, and Dooley was a head scratcher for the entire nation!!!!

Saban was only above .500 2 times in 5 years.
Butch was above .500 5 of his 6 years!!!!
Click to expand...

Let's not pretend that the competition in the Big East and the MAC is on the same level as the Big 10.
 
#215
#215
I think 18 is perfectly reasonable. There's a lot of talent on this team but some serious questions as well. If we get solid (not perfect) QB play, can stay healthy and limit mistakes a we'll win 9-10 games.
 
#216
#216
and keep in mind, i don't necessarily think that Butch was a bad hire at the time. the paper resume was good. good pedigree, it was thought at the time anyway, off the brian kelly tree.

but like i said, 1+1 doesn't always = 2. hind sight being what it is, and now seeing the product going in to year 5, i'd say he's done ok. he's definitely cleaned up the mess that was left for him.

he just might not be that guy that can do more than he has at a program like UT. he may be a really good coach at a mid major, and sometimes that just doesn't translate the way you think it might....it just translates in to being an "ok" coach here, in this league.

the real question is only this......is that good enough for the powers that be at UTK?



we'll see.
 
#217
#217
cali_vol said:
I think 18 is perfectly reasonable. There's a lot of talent on this team but some serious questions as well. If we get solid (not perfect) QB play, can stay healthy and limit mistakes a we'll win 9-10 games.
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it's more than just the qb. the defense is going to have to step up, especially on the D line. LB, while it seems there's some positive news from the spring, is still very much a ?, and in the secondary--so many names to choose from, but so little quality production to go on.

you still need at least 2 WR to really step up, and RB is maybe less of a question at the top of the rotation, but after Kelly, there are ?'s looming.

bottom line, i think we have talent. but this off season is really important for the new/young guys, and coaches, to develop and build chemistry.

if we get a bunch of right answers at all those spots, we can probably compete with anyone we play.

we get more wrong answers, and it could get dicey.

personally, i think it's a lot to ask in a single off season for all that to click from the jump, and I expect some growing pains as a result. i think there will be times we look at this team and can peek in to the future and be excited, and others where you're scratching your head.
 
#218
#218
bamawriter said:
That's the whole point. The SEC coaching fraternity has devolved into Nick Saban and the 13 dwarfs.
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it has. the only caveat to that is that there are so many new faces, it's hard to say right now how they'll all turn out.

smart, muschamp, odom, orgeron, maclwain, mason etc...all with less than 3 years, Stoops, sumlin, Freeze, malzahn, Bielema and Jones with 5 or less. Mullen and Saban are the deans right now iirc.

the whole conference has turned over in the last 5-6 years. some more than once.

it's going to get to the point where everyoene's going to start saying "Saban's not that special, anyone could win in the SEC with that kind of attrition"
:)
 
#219
#219
jakez4ut said:
it's going to get to the point where everyoene's going to start saying "Saban's not that special, anyone could win in the SEC with that kind of attrition"
:)
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To which I would reply "Yeah, but Saban caused the attrition in the first place." :)

Look at the coaches who have left the conference since he arrived - truly amazing. Not all were fired, but look at the turnover (not counting interims):

Rich Brooks
Joker Phillips
Bobby Johnson
Robbie Caldwell
James Franklin
Phil Fulmer
Lane Kiffin
Derek Dooley
Steve Spurrier
Urban Meyer
Will Muschamp
Mark Richt
Gary Pinkel
Tommy Tuberville
Gene Chizik
Sylvester Croom
Ed Orgeron
Houston Nutt
Les Miles
Bobby Petrino
John L. Smith

Anybody else?
 
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#221
#221
05_never_again said:
To which I would reply "Yeah, but Saban caused the attrition in the first place." :)

Look at the coaches who have left the conference since he arrived - truly amazing. Not all were fired, but look at the turnover (not counting interims):

Rich Brooks
Joker Phillips
Bobby Johnson
Robbie Caldwell
James Franklin
Phil Fulmer
Lane Kiffin
Derek Dooley
Steve Spurrier
Urban Meyer
Will Muschamp
Mark Richt
Gary Pinkel
Tommy Tuberville
Gene Chizik
Sylvester Croom
Ed Orgeron
Houston Nutt
Les Miles
Bobby Petrino
John L. Smith

Anybody else?
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Regardless, almost none of the coaches that you've listed were fired or left because of Saban's continued success at Alabama. You might make the argument that struggling to compete with Alabama played into a firing or two, but even that is a bit of a stretch.
 
#223
#223
BeardedVol said:
Regardless, almost none of the coaches that you've listed were fired or left because of Saban's continued success at Alabama. You might make the argument that struggling to compete with Alabama played into a firing or two, but even that is a bit of a stretch.
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no not directly, agreed. but i do think there's some chasing going on. Auburn and LSU are the two that that stand out the most. GA does as well. i think even though they don't play Bama every year, they got their litmus tests in the SEC CG and that reg. season game a few years ago. they saw how far away they were. and by the end of 15, they didn't see that gap closing. Ark also, but to a lesser degree.

for us, i think we were chasing so many things, it's hard to nail it down and say we made our changes due to chasing Saban and Bama....hell, at the time we're chasing GA, FL, and Bama. had just lost to Vandy and KY. our changes have had more to do with direction of the program in general.

everyone else i'd say had more to do with overall direction of the program as well vs. chasing any single program.
 
#224
#224
johnrlansford said:
Butch was:
8-6
8-5
11-2
At Central Michigan

And:
4-8
10-3
9-3 At Cincinnati

Hardly comparable, and Dooley was a head scratcher for the entire nation!!!!

Saban was only above .500 2 times in 5 years.
Butch was above .500 5 of his 6 years!!!!
Click to expand...

Dooley was a risk taken on basis of pedigree and the widely held opinion that he had La Tech moving from an awful state to good things. UT needed someone like they thought Dooley was- credible, Saban tree, "name", etc.

Jones built a record in the MAC against losing teams. I'm not going through the effort to demonstrate it again because you obviously don't want to hear it... but the average winning % of the teams he beat at Cincy was less than 40%.
 
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#225
#225
cali_vol said:
I think 18 is perfectly reasonable. There's a lot of talent on this team but some serious questions as well. If we get solid (not perfect) QB play, can stay healthy and limit mistakes a we'll win 9-10 games.
Click to expand...

And... if he doesn't get it done will it then by 20? Most here agreed that '16 was the "prove it" year. Jones underperformed and now his apologists are moving the goal posts again.
 
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