USA Today: What to like about No. 18 Tennessee

#179
#179
sjt18 said:
Mid-major hires aren't always bad hires. Urban Meyer coached two mid-majors. Unless you "buy" one of a handful of elite coaches then you either choose a successful lower level coach, a successful coordinator from a championship program, or recycle a "good" Power 5 coach and hope he finds his "championship gear" with you.

The problem IMO with the Jones hire is that no one seemed to look at the numbers behind the record. He won lots of games and tied or won conference championships. He did not have success against ranked teams. His success came primarily in and from years when he played a lot of losing teams. I know he beat who was in front of him... but if you are going to promote someone from the mid-majors it needs to be someone who makes a habit out of challenging or beating P-5 opponents and beats winning teams on his schedule at a high clip.

Jones tied for two Big East Championships at Cincy. In 2011, he had one win over a BE opponent who finished the season with a winning record finishing in a 3 way tie with WVU and 7-6 L'ville. In 2012, he again recorded only one win against a BE opponent that finished with a winning record. Good enough with a 4 way tie with L'ville, Rutgers, and Syracuse.


My point is that Jones has a pretty long history of not completely closing the deal when there's a big opportunity in front of him. If UT goes back on the market and promote a mid-major coach... it needs to be one that has won big games and championships in competitive conferences.
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You have far more faith in our Athletic Department than I. Nothing in their track record would make me believe they would hire the type of candidate you are promoting. Too much infighting and political nonsense in our AD.
 
#180
#180
BeardedVol said:
Butch himself set the expectations as "every year the goal is to win championships", but it was the people on this forum and elsewhere that said he had to be given time to build the program back. The general consensus across the board, was that by 2016, Butch, having his recruits and system in place, should be able to show if he has what it takes to succeed in the SEC.

Note, succeeding in the SEC does not, nor will it ever mean just being "better than Dooley".



No one...let me repeat that...no one...expected CBJ to compete for an NC in any year so far during his tenure, nor does anyone expect UT to challenge for an NC every year, and that is not why people doubt his coaching ability, and question the university for continuing to retain him.



A coach can be better than Derek Dooley, but still not have the program succeeding on a level that is commensurate to both his pay, the resources afforded him by the athletic department for the amount of time he has been at the head of the program. Those two situations are not mutually exclusive.



No. That's simply not true. You can find people that wanted him fired after the 2010 season (his only bad season so far at Clemson), but by 2012, his 4th season, he had won his division twice, and the ACC once. That's by year 4, and it was apparent to pretty much everyone at that point that he knew what he was doing.



5-3 and 4-4 with zero division titles is not competitive in the SEC as a whole, or even the division, not in this world, or any world is that being competitive.



Even if that were true, so you think that since historically UT doesn't compete in the SEC, that the program shouldn't going forward? Do you think Clemson cared whether or not "historically" they were a National Championship contender when they hired Dabo and told him to turn Clemson into a championship program?
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Simply put if you expect Butch or any coach not named Saban to surpass what the program has been historically in 4 years, then you are as delusional as you sound in some of your posts.

It is fine to expect more but you also have to realize that Saban didn't become Saban over night(Not that Butch will ever be Saban).

Would you rather be like Ole Miss and start off super strong in year 1-3 and then Flop in year 4-5? we have seen progress under Butch, as much as you would like to undermind that we have, it is a fact!!! The program is in better hands than it was the last few years under Fulmer til now!!!

Just because you think we should be further along doesn't make it true. The Administration just invested a lot of money into the Coaching staff, saying Butch has thier support!!! he will be here until the end of the 2018 season, (Barring a complete melt down, or he gets another job worth taking) even if you think differently!!!:)

Let's not use Dooley as the comparision let's use Fulmer. Fulmer didn't win the The SEC or his division until year 5.5 (5 full years and 1 partial year of 4 games for Majors), So You expect Butch or any coach to do it in 3-4 years. WOW! So by your logic if we had fired Fulmer after year 4 for not winning the SECE then where would we have been? In the gutter again, right!

And yes Dabo was still suspect even after winning the weak ACC division at the time, in year 4, just like JM at Florida is still suspect to most Florida fans after winning a weak SECE 2 years in a row.
 
#181
#181
KBVol said:
2018? Huh? Year 6? Why not just set the arbitrary year at, say, 2022?....I mean, really give Butch some rope. For crying out loud, I thought 2016, year 4, was THE year.
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Not the year that will decide his fate at Tennessee!!! it may have been the year we should have taken a big step forward, but not a year that will get him fired by any means!

You can't build SEC quality depth in 3-4 years that is a fact, see if the Hype that GA is seeing this year isn't halted by the issue of quality depth when they lose 4+ games this year!!! I know Smart is in year 2 but look how much hype they are already getting crowned by many as the SECE champs for 1 good recruiting class.
 
#182
#182
johnrlansford said:
You can't build SEC quality depth in 3-4 years that is a fact,
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No, that is the exact opposite of fact. A program will fill almost all of its 85 scholarships with 3 recruiting classes. It will more than fill them with 4. By year 4, about half of the talent from year 1 has already moved on. If you can't build SEC quality depth in 3 to 4 years, then you are not an SEC quality coach.
 
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#183
#183
there's a difference in building depth, and sustaining it.

we built it. it all got injured, and the top of the depth chart has now left.

it's the sustaining that's the hard part, as i'm sure we'll find out this season. by 18, it'll be built back up a little bit.

if you're not backfilling each cycle, then typically you'll get those roller coaster type years.....up a year or two, down a year or two, then back up, then back down.

so either you're not recruiting well enough on the backfill, or you're not developing it quick enough.....most likely a combination of both.

building and sustaining....there's a difference. and no, not everyone is capable of doing it, for a myriad of reasons. one could be coaching and s&c, so we'll see if all the changes on the staff make the kind of difference we hope it will.
 
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#184
#184
Building sustainable depth is not going to happen when you fire your Strength and Conditioning coach and then not replace him going into what should have been your breakthrough season......
 
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#185
#185
bamawriter said:
No, that is the exact opposite of fact. A program will fill almost all of its 85 scholarships with 3 recruiting classes. It will more than fill them with 4. By year 4, about half of the talent from year 1 has already moved on. If you can't build SEC quality depth in 3 to 4 years, then you are not an SEC quality coach.
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Well I guess there is only 1 SEC quality coach in the SEC!!!:)
 
#188
#188
johnrlansford said:
It may be true but it doesn't make it right.

Saban can reload talent better than anyone in the country.

That doesn't mean it is an SEC standard.

It makes Saban a Unicorn!!!:)
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Saban is certainly not your typical coach. However, I'm not convinced that the other 13 coaches are SEC-caliber. With the exception of Saban, coaching in the conference has been trending in the wrong direction. Great coaches have been replaced with inferior options. For proof of this: only Saban and McElwain have won more than 60% of their SEC games.
 
#189
#189
bamawriter said:
Saban is certainly not your typical coach. However, I'm not convinced that the other 13 coaches are SEC-caliber. With the exception of Saban, coaching in the conference has been trending in the wrong direction. Great coaches have been replaced with inferior options. For proof of this: only Saban and McElwain have won more than 60% of their SEC games.
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Agreed.

But If we set our Bar as Saban is the level everyone wants to be at, then 13 team always fail.

Saban being that good doesn't diminish the rest of the coaches in the SEC, he just gives them a a shorter lifespan because of the success he has shown is possible.

I doubt we see another coach like Saban in my lifetime. No one will dominate the country as a whole liek he has.

There really isn't another coach SEC or in the country that is anywhere close to Saban, that isn't Saban's fault. No coach will stand tall next to Saban!!!
 
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#191
#191
zeppelin128 said:
You have far more faith in our Athletic Department than I. Nothing in their track record would make me believe they would hire the type of candidate you are promoting. Too much infighting and political nonsense in our AD.
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I'm really in no position to say one way or the other on that.
 
#192
#192
johnrlansford said:
Simply put if you expect Butch or any coach not named Saban to surpass what the program has been historically in 4 years, then you are as delusional as you sound in some of your posts.
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That is a false statement built on faulty reasoning. History ONLY makes a good predictor of the future IF you do not change the major contributing factors. Programs like UF and Bama understand that if you aren't getting championships... you only change that "history" by changing coaches until you hire one that wins championships.

However if YOUR attitude that we must be satisfied with mediocrity is accepted.... then not exceeding what the program has been "historically" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You are just engaging in a more sophisticated form of accepting 2nd tier... or even worse.

It is fine to expect more but you also have to realize that Saban didn't become Saban over night(Not that Butch will ever be Saban).
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No. He "became Saban" when LSU fired a mediocre coach and hired him.

Jones could become Saban. He recruits well and could probably become a top recruiter with some success on the field. He runs the program well. He's actually a pretty funny and likeable guy. His problem is game day. In simple terms... he chokes.



The rest of your post was pretty much a regurgitation of the same old worn out excuses. Jones SHOULD HAVE won the SEC East for the past two years. Period. The opportunity was out there right in front of him... he couldn't make it happen.
 
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#193
#193
sjt18 said:
Jones could become Saban. He recruits well and could probably become a top recruiter with some success on the field. He runs the program well. He's actually a pretty funny and likeable guy. His problem is game day. In simple terms... he chokes.



Jones SHOULD HAVE won the SEC East for the past two years. Period. The opportunity was out there right in front of him... he couldn't make it happen.
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this sums it up for me pretty well. lots of opportunity. what can he do with it? so far, 8-4 has been the ceiling.
 
#194
#194
sjt18 said:
That is a false statement built on faulty reasoning. History ONLY makes a good predictor of the future IF you do not change the major contributing factors. Programs like UF and Bama understand that if you aren't getting championships... you only change that "history" by changing coaches until you hire one that wins championships.

However if YOUR attitude that we must be satisfied with mediocrity is accepted.... then not exceeding what the program has been "historically" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You are just engaging in a more sophisticated form of accepting 2nd tier... or even worse.

No. He "became Saban" when LSU fired a mediocre coach and hired him.

Jones could become Saban. He recruits well and could probably become a top recruiter with some success on the field. He runs the program well. He's actually a pretty funny and likeable guy. His problem is game day. In simple terms... he chokes.



The rest of your post was pretty much a regurgitation of the same old worn out excuses. Jones SHOULD HAVE won the SEC East for the past two years. Period. The opportunity was out there right in front of him... he couldn't make it happen.
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You do Know that Saban was a head coach before LSU right?

Saban record was:
6-5-1
6-6
7-5
6-6
9-2

His 5 years at Michigan State before being Hired at LSU!

If we hired a coach with that Record from a weaker conference. We would be the laughing stock of the entire NCAA!!! Not Even you would have hired Saban with the Record!

Saban wasn't that highly sought after when he went to LSU. Saban is a step above everyone right now, Hands down there isn't another Saban out there, nor will there be one in either of our life times.
 
#195
#195
johnrlansford said:
Not the year that will decide his fate at Tennessee!!! it may have been the year we should have taken a big step forward, but not a year that will get him fired by any means!

You can't build SEC quality depth in 3-4 years that is a fact, see if the Hype that GA is seeing this year isn't halted by the issue of quality depth when they lose 4+ games this year!!! I know Smart is in year 2 but look how much hype they are already getting crowned by many as the SECE champs for 1 good recruiting class.
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You can't build depth with 4 recruiting classes? Once you get beyond 4, you begin graduating players that were the foundation for what should've been your depth to begin with and begin the process of starting over. And so on and so on. You better have sophomores and juniors who can play and play well as starters and quality backups, and by definition that takes 2-3 years, not 5+.

It is absurd to say you can't build depth in 4 years.....and if you can't, you're not gonna have your job much longer. That's a fact.
 
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#196
#196
johnrlansford said:
You do Know that Saban was a head coach before LSU right?

Saban record was:
6-5-1
6-6
7-5
6-6
9-2

His 5 years at Michigan State before being Hired at LSU!

If we hired a coach with that Record from a weaker conference. We would be the laughing stock of the entire NCAA!!! Not Even you would have hired Saban with the Record!

Saban wasn't that highly sought after when he went to LSU. Saban is a step above everyone right now, Hands down there isn't another Saban out there, nor will there be one in either of our life times.
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you also have to consider what LSU was at the time. they weren't this version of LSU. they fired Gerry Dinardo. it wasn't like they were replacing a HOF'er. they went out and got a 2nd tier Big 10 head coach that had NFL experience.

at the time, not knowing what we know now, it was a pretty safe hire. everybody thought Saban was a "good" coach at the time. no one knew he would become what he has. that's a crap shoot.

but it was a solid hire back then for a program that was muddling around "pretty good", but not "great", and definitely not in the same stratosphere that LSU reached over the 15 years or so.

point being, they hired a guy that was in a BCS conference that demonstrated program building in similar circumstances. they brought him to a program that had way more resources at the time, and the rest is history.

there's not guaranteed road map on these hires. FL hired Urban Meyer from a WAC school, and that worked out. USC hired Pete Caroll after flaming out in the NFL.

Ohio St hired Jim Tressel from Youngstown St.

FSU did the coach in waiting with Jimbo. Clemson promoted Dabo and waited.

Bama went thru Mike Shula, Mike dubose, Dennis Franchione, Mike Price before getting Saban.

there's no road map that says 1+1=2. but it does start with deciding what you want to be, and making decisions based on that purpose.

not sure we've fallen in that category the past decade or so. we'll see if that changes with Currie....and Butch for that matter.
 
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#197
#197
bamawriter said:
Saban is certainly not your typical coach. However, I'm not convinced that the other 13 coaches are SEC-caliber. With the exception of Saban, coaching in the conference has been trending in the wrong direction. Great coaches have been replaced with inferior options. For proof of this: only Saban and McElwain have won more than 60% of their SEC games.
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Yep. Just look at the coaches that have left/been fired from SEC schools in recent years: Meyer, Richt, Spurrier, Franklin, Fulmer, Petrino, Miles.

Once you get past Saban, the head coaching in this conference is completely mediocre.
 
#199
#199
jakez4ut said:
you also have to consider what LSU was at the time. they weren't this version of LSU. they fired Gerry Dinardo. it wasn't like they were replacing a HOF'er. they went out and got a 2nd tier Big 10 head coach that had NFL experience.

at the time, not knowing what we know now, it was a pretty safe hire. everybody thought Saban was a "good" coach at the time. no one knew he would become what he has. that's a crap shoot.

but it was a solid hire back then for a program that was muddling around "pretty good", but not "great", and definitely not in the same stratosphere that LSU reached over the 15 years or so.

point being, they hired a guy that was in a BCS conference that demonstrated program building in similar circumstances. they brought him to a program that had way more resources at the time, and the rest is history.

there's not guaranteed road map on these hires. FL hired Urban Meyer from a WAC school, and that worked out. USC hired Pete Caroll after flaming out in the NFL.

Ohio St hired Jim Tressel from Youngstown St.

FSU did the coach in waiting with Jimbo. Clemson promoted Dabo and waited.

Bama went thru Mike Shula, Mike dubose, Dennis Franchione, Mike Price before getting Saban.

there's no road map that says 1+1=2. but it does start with deciding what you want to be, and making decisions based on that purpose.

not sure we've fallen in that category the past decade or so. we'll see if that changes with Currie....and Butch for that matter.
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yeah but my point is if we had or do hire someone with the record like Saban was at Michigan State the fan base would go crazy and want everyone fired from the president down....
 
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#200
#200
05_never_again said:
Yep. Just look at the coaches that have left/been fired from SEC schools in recent years: Meyer, Richt, Spurrier, Franklin, Fulmer, Petrino, Miles.

Once you get past Saban, the head coaching in this conference is completely mediocre.
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or maybe Saban is extraordinary and everyone else is just good. You can't always judge by the top and the bottom the middle is usually the median range!
 
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