“It’s such a Peyton Manning-type throw”...Tom Brady on Super Bowl throw

#51
#51
Backwards K said:
You are talking about Brady and Manning in "big games?" Manning was 3-1 vs Brady in AFC Championship games and ended his career on a 3 game winning streak in those head to head Championship match ups.
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I'm not talking about them in "big games" when they faced off against each other; I'm talking about big games they played in, period. There is a tendency here to go after a straw man argument when I say that Brady (or someone other than Peyton) is the best ever. I believe Manning and Brady were 4-4 overall against each other. Brady really got the better of Peyton earlier in their careers but Peyton dominated him towards the end of his.

However, look at their entire playoff resumes. Brady is 25-9 in the playoffs. 5 championships, and is 5-2 in Super Bowls. Brady has only been one and done in the playoffs twice - that is incredible. That happened to Peyton 6 times, and multiple times in home games where his team was favored.

Peyton is much more pedestrian in the postseason. He was only a game over .500 in the playoffs (14-13). He actually had a losing record (9-10) in the playoffs with the Colts, which really stands out when you consider the talent on those teams and how good they were in the regular season.

It is quite an achievement to simply play in 27 playoff games like Peyton did, but once he got there his teams basically won as many games as they lost against playoff competition. IMO, and I don't like saying this, but that is a real strike against him as far as saying he's the best ever.
 
#52
#52
With Peyton Manning he was the offense. Everything they did was about what he could do. You almost just have to attack that one guy to win. Same as Marino and early career Elway. Put a team around Elway and he wins two. Marino never had that kind of team. Peyton won his last ring with a dead arm because he had a team around him. Defense, running game, and was a game manager. Brady has always had a team around him. Not to mention the two times his team got caught cheating.
 
#54
#54
05_never_again said:
I'm not talking about them in "big games" when they faced off against each other; I'm talking about big games they played in, period. There is a tendency here to go after a straw man argument when I say that Brady (or someone other than Peyton) is the best ever. I believe Manning and Brady were 4-4 overall against each other. Brady really got the better of Peyton earlier in their careers but Peyton dominated him towards the end of his.

However, look at their entire playoff resumes. Brady is 25-9 in the playoffs. 5 championships, and is 5-2 in Super Bowls. Brady has only been one and done in the playoffs twice - that is incredible. That happened to Peyton 6 times, and multiple times in home games where his team was favored.

Peyton is much more pedestrian in the postseason. He was only a game over .500 in the playoffs (14-13). He actually had a losing record (9-10) in the playoffs with the Colts, which really stands out when you consider the talent on those teams and how good they were in the regular season.

It is quite an achievement to simply play in 27 playoff games like Peyton did, but once he got there his teams basically won as many games as they lost against playoff competition. IMO, and I don't like saying this, but that is a real strike against him as far as saying he's the best ever.
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Is Peyton more pedestrian in the playoffs, or is that the popular argument that you're just repeating to defend Brady?

Brady, Peyton have remarkably similar postseason stats | ProFootballTalk

This is obviously before last year's AFC Championship. But when you look at performance, statistically, there isn't a lot of difference. Peyton played for two teams and multiple coaches. Brady has played for Belechik. There's an obvious advantage for the player in the more stable position, and no one really talks about that part. The Colts were completely terrible before Peyton, where the Pats were competing for a Super Bowl when Brady showed up.
 
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#55
#55
Big Ugly Vol said:
With Peyton Manning he was the offense. Everything they did was about what he could do. You almost just have to attack that one guy to win. Same as Marino and early career Elway. Put a team around Elway and he wins two. Marino never had that kind of team. Peyton won his last ring with a dead arm because he had a team around him. Defense, running game, and was a game manager. Brady has always had a team around him. Not to mention the two times his team got caught cheating.
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Has he?

Belichick always has a solid defense, but Brady has only had 2 truly elite players to throw/hand the ball off to in his entire career: Randy Moss and Gronk. Moss was only there for 3+ seasons and Gronk is perpetually injured.

Peyton has had multiple elite players to get the ball to: Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Demaryius Thomas. Wayne and Harrison are Hall of Famers and he played for many, many years with both of them. He's had other guys like Dallas Clark and Julius Thomas who were Pro Bowlers and solid players for shorter stretches of time.

Brady has been more dominant with fewer weapons.
 
#56
#56
Volumnus 2011 said:
Is Peyton more pedestrian in the playoffs, or is that the popular argument that you're just repeating to defend Brady?

Brady, Peyton have remarkably similar postseason stats | ProFootballTalk

This is obviously before last year's AFC Championship. But when you look at performance, statistically, there isn't a lot of difference. Peyton played for two teams and multiple coaches. Brady has played for Belechik. There's an obvious advantage for the player in the more stable position, and no one really talks about that part. The Colts were completely terrible before Peyton, where the Pats were competing for a Super Bowl when Brady showed up.
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I'll give you that Belichick is the brains behind the Pats operation, even more than Brady. They went 11-5 in the Matt Cassel year and went 3-1 this year with Jimmy G and Jacoby Brissett. But notice how Peyton starts to not look as good, even in that article you cited, when you start throwing in stats regarding wins and losses or scoring plays.

They basically were identical or very similar on attempts, yards, yards per attempt, etc. But look at that TD/INT stat. Brady 56/28, Peyton 40/24.

When it came down to making a play to win a game, over the span of their careers, Brady was better at that than Manning.
 
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#59
#59
JMSqb11 said:
One has the record for most playoff wins and the other has the record for most playoff losses......
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One played for the same head coach his whole career and was on an established franchise. The other played for 5 head coaches and inherited a dumpster fire in 1998. Peyton would have more than 5 with Bellichech.

Ask Bellichech how good Peyton was!
:-(

TENNESSEEDUKE
 
#60
#60
tennesseeduke said:
One played for the same head coach his whole career and was on an established franchise. The other played for 5 head coaches and inherited a dumpster fire in 1998. Peyton would have more than 5 with Bellichech.

Ask Bellichech how good Peyton was!
:-(

TENNESSEEDUKE
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I think the whole "but he played for 5 head coaches" bit is a little overblown. The only coaching change that was probably a real adjustment for him would be from Mora to Dungy in 2002 since he was still a young player and developing into an NFL QB.

Does anybody really think that Peyton was being coached in any real sense by Caldwell, Fox, or Kubiak? Especially Caldwell or Fox? Peyton was the offensive coordinator of his teams from about 2003 until he retired.
 
#63
#63
dduncan4163 said:
The truth is Elway, Brady, Manning, Marino, Montana, Bradshaw, Unitas, and Favre all have a case for greatest of all time imo
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Great list. I'd add Warren Moon to it. I'd love to have seen what his stats would have been if those 6 years he spent in the CFL had been in the NFL.
 
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#65
#65
Big Ugly Vol said:
With Peyton Manning he was the offense. Everything they did was about what he could do. You almost just have to attack that one guy to win. Same as Marino and early career Elway. Put a team around Elway and he wins two. Marino never had that kind of team. Peyton won his last ring with a dead arm because he had a team around him. Defense, running game, and was a game manager. Brady has always had a team around him. Not to mention the two times his team got caught cheating.
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He's played with good defenses, although he's never played with the kind of defense that would rank among the games all time best defenses.

Offensively, the Patriots have made no effort whatsoever to upgrade the personnel at the skill positions over the course of his career. I posted the following in a different thread. It's the skill players drafted by the Patriots during Brady's career.

2001
Jabari Holloway (TE) 4th
Arther Love (TE) 4th
2002
Daniel Graham (TE) 1st
Deion Branch (WR) 2nd
Antwoine Womack (RB) 7th
David Givens (WR) 7th
2003
Bethel Johnson (WR) 2nd
Spencer Nead (TE) 7th
2004
Ben Watson (TE) 1st
Cedric Cobbs (RB) 4th
P.K. Sam (WR) 5th
2005
Andy Stokes (TE) 7th
2006
Laurence Maroney (RB) 1st
Chad Jackson (WR) 2nd
Dave Thomas (TE) 3rd
Garrett Mills (RB) 4th
2007
Justise Hairston (RB) 6th
2008
Matt Slater (WR) 5th
2009
Brandon Tate (WR) 3rd
Julian Edelman (WR) 7th
2010
Gronk (TE) 2nd
Taylor Price (WR) 3rd
Aaron Hernandez (TE) 4th
2011
Shane Vereen (RB) 2nd
Steven Ridley (RB) 3rd
Lee Smith (TE) 5th
2012
Jeremy Ebert (WR) 7th
2013
Aaron Dobson (WR) 2nd
Josh Boyce (WR) 4th
2014
James White (RB) 4th
Jeremy Gallon (WR) 7th
2015
AJ Derby (TE) 6th
2016
Malcolm Mitchell (WR) 4th
Devin Lucien (WR) 7th

The burden is put on Brady's shoulders to raise the level of play of everyone else. One of the most disgusting things about the Falcon choke job in the Super Bowl is that, for the most part, the Patriots are incapable of gobbling up yards in chunks. They have to have 10+ play sustained drives because their receivers can't get open (outside of Gronk) past 10 yards downfield without some sort of fake to sucker the defense.

IMO, the difference between Brady and almost every other great QB is what he had around him. There isn't going to be a parade of Patriots, particularly offensive players, entering the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
 
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#66
#66
VolsSportsFan said:
Apparently it takes 5 topics here at VN to keep arguing this.
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Agreed. This is such a nonsensical discussion. There is no G.O.A.T people!! Surely no one here thinks Brady would trade one SB ring for another MVP award. Do you think Manning would trade two MVP awards to change those two SB losses into two more rings? In a heartbeat. Why? It's a team game. That's why the players play the game. Being on a winning team. If someone wants to say the Patriots are the greatest team football franchise, that's worth the time to argue with those who would have valid arguments for Pittsburgh, Green Bay, San Francisco, or even Dallas. This individual crap is a gigantic waste of time.
 
#67
#67
Volumnus 2011 said:
Is Peyton more pedestrian in the playoffs, or is that the popular argument that you're just repeating to defend Brady?

Brady, Peyton have remarkably similar postseason stats | ProFootballTalk

This is obviously before last year's AFC Championship. But when you look at performance, statistically, there isn't a lot of difference. Peyton played for two teams and multiple coaches. Brady has played for Belechik. There's an obvious advantage for the player in the more stable position, and no one really talks about that part. The Colts were completely terrible before Peyton, where the Pats were competing for a Super Bowl when Brady showed up.
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There you go again. Using facts to get in the way of the rants of another miserable person. :no:

I'll add: Peyton made it to four Super Bowls with Tony Dungy, Jim Caldwell, John Fox, and Gary Kubiak as his head coaches. That's first ballot Hall of Fame worthy by itself!!
 
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#68
#68
05_never_again said:
I think the whole "but he played for 5 head coaches" bit is a little overblown. The only coaching change that was probably a real adjustment for him would be from Mora to Dungy in 2002 since he was still a young player and developing into an NFL QB.

Does anybody really think that Peyton was being coached in any real sense by Caldwell, Fox, or Kubiak? Especially Caldwell or Fox? Peyton was the offensive coordinator of his teams from about 2003 until he retired.
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The thing about Peyton that separates him from others, is that his football IQ is unmatched. He's smarter than The majority of NFL head coaches.
 
#69
#69
99gator said:
He's played with good defenses, although he's never played with the kind of defense that would rank among the games all time best defenses.

Offensively, the Patriots have made no effort whatsoever to upgrade the personnel at the skill positions over the course of his career. I posted the following in a different thread. It's the skill players drafted by the Patriots during Brady's career.

The burden is put on Brady's shoulders to raise the level of play of everyone else. One of the most disgusting things about the Falcon choke job in the Super Bowl is that, for the most part, the Patriots are incapable of gobbling up yards in chunks. They have to have 10+ play sustained drives because their receivers can't get open (outside of Gronk) past 10 yards downfield without some sort of fake to sucker the defense.

IMO, the difference between Brady and almost every other great QB is what he had around him. There isn't going to be a parade of Patriots, particularly offensive players, entering the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
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You wrong cuz youse a Gator and a Hater.
 
#70
#70
Again this is just my opinion, but lets look at how the teams were when both the QBs missed a year,

2008 Patriots,
11-5 record
Points For: 410 (25.6/g) 8th of 32
Points Against: 309 (19.3/g) 8th of 32

2011 Colts,
2-14 record
Points For: 243 (15.2/g) 28th of 32
Points Against: 430 (26.9/g) 28th of 32

I think Brady is a great system QB, if they can plug in their backup and get pretty much the same results, then the system seems to make the QB look better. Is he a top 5-10 QB, no doubt, but lets not ignore the fact that when he missed a year the Pats didn't skip a beat.

When Manning missed a year the Colts nose dived. I don't think SB rings is what makes a QB the GOAT, cause had few kicks not gone the wrong way, we'd be sitting here talking about how no one could touch Jim Kelly.
 
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#71
#71
VolRoger said:
Agreed. This is such a nonsensical discussion. There is no G.O.A.T people!! Surely no one here thinks Brady would trade one SB ring for another MVP award. Do you think Manning would trade two MVP awards to change those two SB losses into two more rings? In a heartbeat. Why? It's a team game. That's why the players play the game. Being on a winning team. If someone wants to say the Patriots are the greatest team football franchise, that's worth the time to argue with those who would have valid arguments for Pittsburgh, Green Bay, San Francisco, or even Dallas. This individual crap is a gigantic waste of time.
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Exactly. End of thread and discussion.
 
#73
#73
JMSqb11 said:
One has the record for most playoff wins and the other has the record for most playoff losses......
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The one with the most losses also has the most games played with defenses outside the top 15 in the NFL each year.

If you swapped just defenses, kept everything else the same, Manning has probably 2 more rings in Indy, at minimum.

If you swapped Manning and Brady and kept the teams the same, Manning has 3 more rings than Brady does currently, and an undefeated season most likely as well.

And Peyton probably doesn't get caught destroying his cell phone with evidence of cheating because he'd be smart enough to not text or e mail that he was cheating at all. He'd do that in phone calls or in person where you have no evidence of it.
 
#74
#74
Daloth said:
The one with the most losses also has the most games played with defenses outside the top 15 in the NFL each year.

If you swapped just defenses, kept everything else the same, Manning has probably 2 more rings in Indy, at minimum.

If you swapped Manning and Brady and kept the teams the same, Manning has 3 more rings than Brady does currently, and an undefeated season most likely as well.

And Peyton probably doesn't get caught destroying his cell phone with evidence of cheating because he'd be smart enough to not text or e mail that he was cheating at all. He'd do that in phone calls or in person where you have no evidence of it.
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Your first sentence just reiterates my statement that there cannot be a GOAT at any one single position on a football field.

However there is no way to prove that Peyton would have more rings than Brady if they switched. Tom Brady is a fantastic QB that has ice in his veins. These types of discussions will go on forever and there is no way to really say that one is better than the other.
 
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#75
#75
Good thing the thread and discussion weren't ended.
 
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