Recruiting Forum Football Talk XXXI

[utvolmaniac]

- 247 (Brice)

Re last paragraph ~ you should have seen what he (Barnett) did against left tackles.

 

[Rishvol]

I don't know about anybody else but the Clawson disaster weighs heavily on my mind. A new system almost always spells bad news, especially with our QB situation and how many points we put up last year.

People say Butch is hard headed doesnt want to change his offense, yada yada

I think he wants to keep his job.

Our QB situation is why a new system would be fine right now

 

[Nashvegas31]

The silence here is deafening.

Because nobody knows how he will do as a play caller. It's basically a well he is an elite recruiter that is well on his way to being a HC soon so it gives optimism that he might can be a good OC but we won't know until Gameday

 

[bignewt]

Our QB situation is why a new system would be fine right now

Your logic eludes me.

 

[Dust10]

No point in ever asking Butch to change his offensive system. It's not gonna happen. I'll be fine with coach Scott.

We need to get this injury and toughness situation under control. Hopefully that process is well underway.

 

[Vols4us]

Observations. JMO.

Rock G - Rams haven't been much, but then Jeff Fisher was just fired so there's that. Nobody can deny they are not physically strong or explosive at some positions. They just need roster development and good schemes. Rock helped develop a 13-3 with GB in 2007 in his 3 years with them. He helped develop the first 3 years in a 5 year run in the playoffs for Seattle including a 13-3 in 2005 when they lost in the SB with Holmgren. He was with them for 6 years until going to GB. He's from Kentucky and went to Morehead, so I'm guessing he's probably closing out his career more near to home. Power and explosiveness guy - but most claim that. "Rock" solid hire IMO.

Jimmy Johnson always said to design your team to beat the best opponent on your schedule. Bama. Power and explosiveness, not overloaded with gazelles and trick offenses. How did Louisville finish out with that? Also, smaller speed guys wear down in the second half on D. Ziti has been pounding the posts about having enough big, strong DT's. That also applies at LB, hence Bituli's promotion and Ignont's recruitment. Ziti's right and Jimmy Johnson always did that with DT's and LB's. On O we know Butch loves the run game and set up his scheme for it to thrive. Now he needs the players developed that can accomplish it. In a DT QB offense you better have a good DT QB coach, whether the OC does it or somebody else. I disagree with Butch in recruiting a million WR's. A solid rotation of 6-7 are plenty when you plan to run the ball close to 60% of the time - which Butch does. That means you recruit 9-10, not a dozen. Use those 2-3 scholarships on more DT's and big LB's. You can always run more two TE sets with the passing TE(s) in the slot(s) if there are significant injuries.

If Scott's the guy as OC, I can live with it. Not overly enthusiastic about it because I am not totally sold on Butch's O and that's what his hire would mean - just tweaks and play calling changes. I will never be a fan of wasting plays, time, and injuries on middle school level gap scheme runs that are not going to win games in the SEC. Which was what they made Hurd run over and over. Yes, RB's like Kelly and Kamara can make more with their jukes and quickness, but they also take a pounding in the process. If the D does its job that play design will only work occasionally when the RB is lined up in the pistol and can have enough time see how the gaps develop. Even with that, the D also has more time to outflank the O-line and cave the play from the outside. The counter to their crashing down is the man in motion and jet sweep stuff for which Jake was famous. He was only responding with what Butch gave him in that system, which may have contributed to why he left for the NFL. Four years of watching it has been one of the most frustrating things to watch as a lifelong Vol fan.

FWIW, David Blackburn would know all this.

 

[Kingston Vol]

I wouldn't say Larry Scott, if he is the guy, will be hired because he runs Butch's system. It's not the style he ran at Miami while interim.

He likes more two TE sets and bunch packages.

 

[McGeesPub]

Our QB situation is why a new system would be fine right now

That, and the analogy is flawed because Clawson was bringing something COMPLETELY different than what we had with Cut. Butch is right, we don't need a new philosophy, but you can find an OC with a similar philosophy who has had experience.

 

[Volnukem]

Observations. JMO.

Rock G - Rams haven't been much, but then Jeff Fisher was just fired so there's that. Nobody can deny they are not physically strong or explosive at some positions. They just need roster development and good schemes. Rock helped develop a 13-3 with GB in 2007 in his 3 years with them. He helped develop the first 3 years in a 5 year run in the playoffs for Seattle including a 13-3 in 2005 when they lost in the SB with Holmgren. He was with them for 6 years until going to GB. He's from Kentucky and went to Morehead, so I'm guessing he's probably closing out his career more near to home. Power and explosiveness guy - but most claim that. "Rock" solid hire IMO.

Jimmy Johnson always said to design your team to beat the best opponent on your schedule. Bama. Power and explosiveness, not overloaded with gazelles and trick offenses. How did Louisville finish out with that? Also, smaller speed guys wear down in the second half on D. Ziti has been pounding the posts about having enough big, strong DT's. That also applies at LB, hence Bituli's promotion and Ignont's recruitment. Ziti's right and Jimmy Johnson always did that with DT's and LB's. On O we know Butch loves the run game and set up his scheme for it to thrive. Now he needs the players developed that can accomplish it. In a DT QB offense you better have a good DT QB coach, whether the OC does it or somebody else. I disagree with Butch in recruiting a million WR's. A solid rotation of 6-7 are plenty when you plan to run the ball close to 60% of the time - which Butch does. That means you recruit 9-10, not a dozen. Use those 2-3 scholarships on more DT's and big LB's. You can always run more two TE sets with the passing TE(s) in the slot(s) if there are significant injuries.

If Scott's the guy as OC, I can live with it. Not overly enthusiastic about it because I am not totally sold on Butch's O and that's what his hire would mean - just tweaks and play calling changes. I will never be a fan of wasting plays, time, and injuries on middle school level gap scheme runs that are not going to win games in the SEC. Which was what they made Hurd run over and over. Yes, RB's like Kelly and Kamara can make more with their jukes and quickness, but they also take a pounding in the process. If the D does its job that play design will only work occasionally when the RB is lined up in the pistol and can have enough time see how the gaps develop. Even with that, the D also has more time to outflank the O-line and cave the play from the outside. The counter to their crashing down is the man in motion and jet sweep stuff for which Jake was famous. He was only responding with what Butch gave him in that system, which may have contributed to why he left for the NFL. Four years of watching it has been one of the most frustrating things to watch as a lifelong Vol fan.

FWIW, David Blackburn would know all this.

FWIW, for the last 3 years by the end of the year, we have had 12, 10, and 8 WR's on the roster, respectively.

 

[bignewt]

I wouldn't say Larry Scott, if he is the guy, will be hired because he runs Butch's system. It's not the style he ran at Miami while interim.

He likes more two TE sets and bunch packages.

He has also been in CBJs system for a year and knows what he runs and how to fit his philosophy into it.

 

[Nashvegas31]

I wouldn't say Larry Scott, if he is the guy, will be hired because he runs Butch's system. It's not the style he ran at Miami while interim.

He likes more two TE sets and bunch packages.

Scott is an impressive dude. Part of me thinks this is a total Butch move but part of me is also thinking This is it for Butch. So if Butch has the guts to promote from within a guy he only had for a year then he must have a ton of faith in him.

 

[bignewt]

That, and the analogy is flawed because Clawson was bringing something COMPLETELY different than what we had with Cut. Butch is right, we don't need a new philosophy, but you can find an OC with a similar philosophy who has had experience.

You guys make it sound so simple. Offenses, even with the same "philosophy" can be extremely different in terms of terminology, game planning etc. That is what doomed the Clawfense. Asking QBs to run a new system for the first time after running CBJs for two years is asking for trouble.

I may be wrong but if it ain't broken don't fix it, just call better plays and be more aggressive.

 

[McGeesPub]

He has also been in CBJs system for a year and knows what he runs and how to fit his philosophy into it.

Does he? After one year and no OC experience, he knows exactly what to do? Wow! I'm not sure if I'm more impressed with your understanding of the situation or Scott's.

 

[GoBigOrangeVols]

Because nobody knows how he will do as a play caller. It's basically a well he is an elite recruiter that is well on his way to being a HC soon so it gives optimism that he might can be a good OC but we won't know until Gameday

I think that's the biggest problem with moving him to OC. Tennessee isn't a place to figure out whether you can be a good OC or not. Honestly, it would be malpractice to put someone in that position at UT, against SEC defenses, that has never done it before.

 

[bignewt]

Does he? After one year and no OC experience, he knows exactly what to do? Wow! I'm not sure if I'm more impressed with your understanding of the situation or Scott's.

So either bring in a new system or take a chance on a guy who has never single-handedly run a system.

Damned if you do...

 

[McGeesPub]

You guys make it sound so simple. Offenses, even with the same "philosophy" can be extremely different in terms of terminology, game planning etc. That is what doomed the Clawfense. Asking QBs to run a new system for the first time after running CBJs for two years is asking for trouble.

I may be wrong but if it ain't broken don't fix it, just call better plays and be more aggressive.

If there is an oversimplification to be had, it's your last sentence.

 

[LynxVol]

Observations. JMO.

Rock G - Rams haven't been much, but then Jeff Fisher was just fired so there's that. Nobody can deny they are not physically strong or explosive at some positions. They just need roster development and good schemes. Rock helped develop a 13-3 with GB in 2007 in his 3 years with them. He helped develop the first 3 years in a 5 year run in the playoffs for Seattle including a 13-3 in 2005 when they lost in the SB with Holmgren. He was with them for 6 years until going to GB. He's from Kentucky and went to Morehead, so I'm guessing he's probably closing out his career more near to home. Power and explosiveness guy - but most claim that. "Rock" solid hire IMO.

Jimmy Johnson always said to design your team to beat the best opponent on your schedule. Bama. Power and explosiveness, not overloaded with gazelles and trick offenses. How did Louisville finish out with that? Also, smaller speed guys wear down in the second half on D. Ziti has been pounding the posts about having enough big, strong DT's. That also applies at LB, hence Bituli's promotion and Ignont's recruitment. Ziti's right and Jimmy Johnson always did that with DT's and LB's. On O we know Butch loves the run game and set up his scheme for it to thrive. Now he needs the players developed that can accomplish it. In a DT QB offense you better have a good DT QB coach, whether the OC does it or somebody else. I disagree with Butch in recruiting a million WR's. A solid rotation of 6-7 are plenty when you plan to run the ball close to 60% of the time - which Butch does. That means you recruit 9-10, not a dozen. Use those 2-3 scholarships on more DT's and big LB's. You can always run more two TE sets with the passing TE(s) in the slot(s) if there are significant injuries.

If Scott's the guy as OC, I can live with it. Not overly enthusiastic about it because I am not totally sold on Butch's O and that's what his hire would mean - just tweaks and play calling changes. I will never be a fan of wasting plays, time, and injuries on middle school level gap scheme runs that are not going to win games in the SEC. Which was what they made Hurd run over and over. Yes, RB's like Kelly and Kamara can make more with their jukes and quickness, but they also take a pounding in the process. If the D does its job that play design will only work occasionally when the RB is lined up in the pistol and can have enough time see how the gaps develop. Even with that, the D also has more time to outflank the O-line and cave the play from the outside. The counter to their crashing down is the man in motion and jet sweep stuff for which Jake was famous. He was only responding with what Butch gave him in that system, which may have contributed to why he left for the NFL. Four years of watching it has been one of the most frustrating things to watch as a lifelong Vol fan.

FWIW, David Blackburn would know all this.

A guy named Philip Fulmer once said that you can never recruit and have too many DTs or RBs on your roster. Even though football has changed a bit since Fulmer (primarily with the evolution and value of DT QBs), it is still a line of scrimmage game. I think our OL is in solid shape, but we need to focus on the DL big time in 2018. I think closing with Sterling and/or Conliffe would go a big way for the 2017 recruiting class since both have the potential to grow into a DT in college.

 

[utvolmaniac]

Our QB situation is why a new system would be fine right now

Your logic eludes me.

My take is that we will be developing a new QB next year. QD is more of a pocket passer who happens to be able to pull the rock down and run. JG may be in that same mold, or he could be more like JD and will be affective in CBJ's zone read offense. I happen to think he fits the former mold rather than the latter, but time will tell.

Since we have to develop a new QB, now would be the time to tweak the offensive scheme.

Bama has historically ran a pro-style offense. However, this past year they incorporated more zone read plays into their offense. That fit with their new QB, Jalen Hurts.

Thus, that is the difference between Saban and CBJ. Saban is willing to adjust his offense to fit his players' skill sets while CBJ wants the players to adjust their skill sets to fit his offense. Who would you rather have as your coach?

Don't read me wrong, I am pro CBJ, but this is one of his short-comings.

 

[Volnukem]

Observations. JMO.

Rock G - Rams haven't been much, but then Jeff Fisher was just fired so there's that. Nobody can deny they are not physically strong or explosive at some positions. They just need roster development and good schemes. Rock helped develop a 13-3 with GB in 2007 in his 3 years with them. He helped develop the first 3 years in a 5 year run in the playoffs for Seattle including a 13-3 in 2005 when they lost in the SB with Holmgren. He was with them for 6 years until going to GB. He's from Kentucky and went to Morehead, so I'm guessing he's probably closing out his career more near to home. Power and explosiveness guy - but most claim that. "Rock" solid hire IMO.

Jimmy Johnson always said to design your team to beat the best opponent on your schedule. Bama. Power and explosiveness, not overloaded with gazelles and trick offenses. How did Louisville finish out with that? Also, smaller speed guys wear down in the second half on D. Ziti has been pounding the posts about having enough big, strong DT's. That also applies at LB, hence Bituli's promotion and Ignont's recruitment. Ziti's right and Jimmy Johnson always did that with DT's and LB's. On O we know Butch loves the run game and set up his scheme for it to thrive. Now he needs the players developed that can accomplish it. In a DT QB offense you better have a good DT QB coach, whether the OC does it or somebody else. I disagree with Butch in recruiting a million WR's. A solid rotation of 6-7 are plenty when you plan to run the ball close to 60% of the time - which Butch does. That means you recruit 9-10, not a dozen. Use those 2-3 scholarships on more DT's and big LB's. You can always run more two TE sets with the passing TE(s) in the slot(s) if there are significant injuries.

If Scott's the guy as OC, I can live with it. Not overly enthusiastic about it because I am not totally sold on Butch's O and that's what his hire would mean - just tweaks and play calling changes. I will never be a fan of wasting plays, time, and injuries on middle school level gap scheme runs that are not going to win games in the SEC. Which was what they made Hurd run over and over. Yes, RB's like Kelly and Kamara can make more with their jukes and quickness, but they also take a pounding in the process. If the D does its job that play design will only work occasionally when the RB is lined up in the pistol and can have enough time see how the gaps develop. Even with that, the D also has more time to outflank the O-line and cave the play from the outside. The counter to their crashing down is the man in motion and jet sweep stuff for which Jake was famous. He was only responding with what Butch gave him in that system, which may have contributed to why he left for the NFL. Four years of watching it has been one of the most frustrating things to watch as a lifelong Vol fan.

FWIW, David Blackburn would know all this.

I think the staff is actually recruiting way too many linebackers. If every thing holds in the recruiting class, then we will have 13 LB's on scholarship next year for 2 spots.

 

[Glitch]

If Butch's offense is so horrible, why are Aaron Medley, Josh Dobbs, Jalen Hurd, and Alvin Kamara all in the Top 10 All Time in Points Scored at UT? Aaron Medley is 9 points from overtaking James Wilhoit atop the list.

But I guess the offense isn't up to our standards.

 

[LynxVol]

You guys make it sound so simple. Offenses, even with the same "philosophy" can be extremely different in terms of terminology, game planning etc. That is what doomed the Clawfense. Asking QBs to run a new system for the first time after running CBJs for two years is asking for trouble.

I may be wrong but if it ain't broken don't fix it, just call better plays and be more aggressive.

If CBJ is true to his word, then that is what we'll get. The only time he's addressed the media about the OC hire he emphasized getting the right fit. He's not going to hire someone who wants to drastically change anything to do with the "philosophy," terminology, etc.

 

[BaldBiker]

If there is an oversimplification to be had, it's your last sentence.

Really? Elaborate please. Did you see issues with the offense other that what Newt just mentioned?

Our offense was good this year. Other than some mental break downs by players on occasion, the main problems were getting into a rut of predictable play calling and/or not being aggressive enough. I actually liked DeBord, but those are the exact two things that I would say needed to be fixed too. Even with DeBord...when he called unpredictable games and/or got more aggressive, our offense went from good to great.

Not flaming. Curious as to your opinion on as to why it's an oversimplification.

 

[GoBigOrange86]

If Butch's offense is so horrible, why are Aaron Medley, Josh Dobbs, Jalen Hurd, and Alvin Kamara all in the Top 10 All Time in Points Scored at UT? Aaron Medley is 9 points from overtaking James Wilhoit atop the list.

But I guess the offense isn't up to our standards.

Because reasons.

Offense hasn't really been the issue.

 

[Dust10]

I think the staff is actually recruiting way too many linebackers. If every thing holds in the recruiting class, then we will have 13 LB's on scholarship next year for 2 spots.

Our LB's get a lot of run in Special Teams, but in general, I agree.

 

[BaldBiker]

If Butch's offense is so horrible, why are Aaron Medley, Josh Dobbs, Jalen Hurd, and Alvin Kamara all in the Top 10 All Time in Points Scored at UT? Aaron Medley is 9 points from overtaking James Wilhoit atop the list.

But I guess the offense isn't up to our standards.

This is what I'm wanting people to answer too. There were problems with it, but the problems are fixable. Stop calling predictable series of plays and be more aggressive. That doesn't mean ALL the time. Every team at some point or another has predictable series of plays and every team at some point or another plays less aggressive. It just happened way to much at TN the last couple of years. The scheme works. The person calling the scheme has to do a better job IMO.