I think some of you seriously misunderstand Butch

[sanddune50]

the losing seasons is what did fulmer in ultimately. the program had gotten stale after 04, and though he did make it back in 07, we saw how long that lasted. throw in the losing seasons, the terrible hire at OC, the lax in recruiting, the losing streaks to GA, FL and Bama etc....and it just was what it was.

now, had fulmer continued to win 8-10 games a year, while still going to ATL every 3 or so years, he'd probably still be here, and rightfully so.

the same could be said of CBJ too. if he can ever get there. right now CBJ is our Ray Goff.

2006 and 2007 was ironically the time when Fulmer brought Cutcliffe back. Had Hamilton anted up and paid Cutcliffe, 2008 and beyond may have never happened. Of course, Fulmer's piece of the puzzle was recruiting. And he became abysmal at what was once his strength in his early days at Tennessee.

 

[allvol123]

He lost to Vandy and USCjr , I believe I understand him perfectly.

 

[hohenfelsvol]

I think he means he disagrees with what I said.

At least that's how I took it.

I agree

 

[Evet Vols]

Butch is a terrible coach

Chatt town is a terrible poster

 

[05_never_again]

Funny, but Tennessee is a historical 8.7 wpy program. So what's your point?

I think it is more relevant to look at his WPY while at Tennessee, which is 7.5. A wins per year average is kind of irrelevant, frankly. What if we had a coach that won exactly 9 games/year for 10 straight years? That'd be extremely impressive to average 9 wins/year, but in all likelihood we would have never won the division during that time (assuming the losses are conference losses).

Butch's problem is that while he has elevated the program from some pretty miserable depths, he hasn't truly won anything either. He has raised the level of expectation of the program every year he has been here, which is a credit to him. However, if the peak of your coaching ability is winning the Outback Bowl, you will eventually be fired at Tennessee once the administration believes that to be your peak. That just isn't good enough here.

 

['Boro-vol]

Funny, but Tennessee is a historical 8.7 wpy program. So what's your point?

You're right....no reason to ever shoot any higher. I'm convinced.

 

['Boro-vol]

I think it is more relevant to look at his WPY while at Tennessee, which is 7.5. A wins per year average is kind of irrelevant, frankly. What if we had a coach that won exactly 9 games/year for 10 straight years? That'd be extremely impressive to average 9 wins/year, but in all likelihood we would have never won the division during that time (assuming the losses are conference losses).

Butch's problem is that while he has elevated the program from some pretty miserable depths, he hasn't truly won anything either. He has raised the level of expectation of the program every year he has been here, which is a credit to him. However, if the peak of your coaching ability is winning the Outback Bowl, you will eventually be fired at Tennessee once the administration believes that to be your peak. That just isn't good enough here.

You put significantly more effort into that answer than I thought the point deserved. Thank you for that....well done.

 

[sanddune50]

Funny, but Tennessee is a historical 8.7 wpy program. So what's your point?

The point is that's a horrible stat that really has no bearing. Most seasons were 10-11 games tops until the SEC expanded to 12 teams in the 90s. And the mandatory 12th game didn't occur to the mid 2000s. So your 8.7 stat is skewed because it doesn't factor in that 12 game scedules have only been around for a little over a decade. 8-2 and 9-1 is acceptable. 8-4 and 9-3 while good should never be our peak.

 

[sjt18]

Completely wrong

Wow.... and you made such a strong, fact based rebuttal too! :lolabove:

He's not wrong. If you believe he is then how about throwing a few facts and a couple of actual thoughts together? Or do you need a "safe space" where you won't be confronted with the "negative" results of Jones?

 

[sjt18]

Funny, but Tennessee is a historical 8.7 wpy program. So what's your point?

There were lean years in that average too. Should we just "accept" losing or middling seasons like UT suffered in the 70's?

You don't keep a coach who is "average"... unless you are satisfied with being average. You can't set the bar for a coach expecting him to average in a bunch of bad seasons. The goal is to hire a coach who will IMPROVE the average number of wins per year, right?

 

[Evet Vols]

Wow.... and you made such a strong, fact based rebuttal too! :lolabove:

He's not wrong. If you believe he is then how about throwing a few facts and a couple of actual thoughts together? Or do you need a "safe space" where you won't be confronted with the "negative" results of Jones?

“If you listen to the fans, you’ll find yourself sitting with them.” Coach Kuharich

 

[jakez4ut]

historical wpy doesn't mean anything. go back far enough and there were 9 game seasons where 7 wins was "good".

what matters is what you're capable of in the context of the current situation. and while i don't disparage everything CBJ has done for this program, cause there's plenty to be proud of, it's not exactly going out on a limb and wondering aloud if that's all he's capable of doing? and if it is, that's ok. what's not ok, is just sitting on your hands and saying "oh well, at least it's better than it was 5 years ago".

which is what we get too much from him these days. that's what's not gonna cut it.

own it.

 

[Voltopia]

I'm fine with deflecting negativity but that "your football program has won 15 of its last 19 games" stuff is foolish.

Number one, it treats the listeners like they're idiots. Nobody cares about mixing and matching records from different teams, just like no one cares about "SEC east" champions.

Number two, it acts like we're all too dumb to remember that Tennessee plays Vanderbilt, Kentucky, and Missouri in November every year. People used to call Phil Fulmer "Mr. November" for that same reason. They're not throwaway games but they're not exactly hard either.

Number three, no one starts counting our record *after* losing to Alabama. Which, incidentally, is game #20 in Butch's curious little statistic.

Again, I'm not really into a coach change right now, not slamming the program's performance, but cherrypicking stats is just bizarre and unnecessary. I don't want Butch Jones to twist the statistics to look good; I want him to BEAT TEAMS to look good.

 

[Volfan76]

It seems all I hear from the "supposed negavols" is that CBJ is happy with (or at least accepting of) mediocrity - good but not great - because he simply doesnt have the skills to get us to glory and likely never will. Thus he tries to convince the fanbase that 8-9 wins is "good enough" for where we are at and that you should continually blindly hope for the future, because hey, you never know.

You people are silly. Its not that CBJ accepts or is happy with anything less than a championship - its just that he didnt get there this year (for a lot of reasons, some his fault and others not), and he is trying to re-frame to the positive. "Always be thinking positive" is likely something he buys into. I have absolutely no inside info whatsoever but CBJ presents as someone whom is 100% bought into the whole shtick, full on Knute Rockne style. And I doubt he could sell it if he wasnt.

Vol fans need to understand, they are likely NEVER to see CBJ speak a negative word about his coaches, players or lack of success, in a game or a season - or anyone else's for that matter. Its just not his style. Steve Spurrier he is not and never will be. Get used to it.

A pretty much universally accepted fact is that Butch has done a good job of resurrecting UT from the dumpster fire we were in for almost a decade. Where it wasnt a question of winning the Bowl game or griping about not getting the one we wanted but IF we would even get one. Now we are back to where winning seasons are expected as a given and EVERYONE expects UT to compete for the East at a minimum and have a real shot of getting to the playoffs. That deserves a lot of respect because no, we dont have winning seasons, bowl games and recruit top 10 just because we are Tennessee. It takes a lot of work and talent over other people who are trying to do exactly the same thing, especially in the SEC.

That said, NOBODY is satisfied with where we are at (ending as merely a top 25 program 2nd year in a row) - and that MOST ESPECIALLY includes "Lyle" Butch Jones. The good news is that he is fairly young for coaching a top program so he has energy and time to learn. I think it can be said that he has made the adjustment from mid major to power 5 and even as a competitive coach in the SEC but it remains to be seen if he can make the leap to being an elite coach. Will he succeed? I dont know but he is making adjustments, including coaching changes, etc, so perhaps he can. Lets all hope so but dont expect to hear anything but relentless coach speak to ever leave his lips. That is how he is wired and he (righly) thinks that the only difference between being laughed at and derided for his aphorisms versus seeing everyone declare them as pearls of genius that Vol Nation will put as Holy Writ on posters on their walls... is just 2-3 more wins per season :thumbsup:

I could maybe buy this if he didn't have the audacity to ask for a raise...actions speak louder than words.

 

[EZE]

The point is that's a horrible stat that really has no bearing. Most seasons were 10-11 games tops until the SEC expanded to 12 teams in the 90s. And the mandatory 12th game didn't occur to the mid 2000s. So your 8.7 stat is skewed because it doesn't factor in that 12 game scedules have only been around for a little over a decade. 8-2 and 9-1 is acceptable. 8-4 and 9-3 while good should never be our peak.

I knew the mathematically challenged would blow it with this argument. Tennessee has a historical .679 win percentage. WATCH THIS SO YOU DON'T MISS IT. When that is multiplied against a 13-GAME schedule, it equates to 8.8 wins. Got it?

I don't disagree that we shouldn't aim higher. But, a 9-win season is still above the historical average and way above the trailing 10-year average.

 

[jbr82]

Positivity comes with positive results.

Always has been at bigtime programs

 

[Volfan76]

I knew the mathematically challenged would blow it with this argument. Tennessee has a historical .679 win percentage. WATCH THIS SO YOU DON'T MISS IT. When that is multiplied against a 13-GAME schedule, it equates to 8.8 wins. Got it?

I don't disagree that we shouldn't aim higher. But, a 9-win season is still above the historical average and way above the trailing 10-year average.

What was Alabama's average before and after they hired Saban?

 

[Sandman 423]

Hey Count!!! Lets look at a fair comparison....


2013-2016+------------------------2008-2012
1-3 vs Florida---------------------- 0-4 vs Florida

2-2 vs Georgia----------------------1-3 vs Georgia

0-4 vs Bama------------------------0-4 vs Bama

0-4 vs rest of West division--------1-6 vs rest of West

14-18 SEC record------------------ 8-22 SEC record

3-0 in bowls------------------------0-2 in bowls


The writing is on the wall. Tennessee is moving in the right direction.

 

[SGMVols]

I knew the mathematically challenged would blow it with this argument. Tennessee has a historical .679 win percentage. WATCH THIS SO YOU DON'T MISS IT. When that is multiplied against a 13-GAME schedule, it equates to 8.8 wins. Got it?

I don't disagree that we shouldn't aim higher. But, a 9-win season is still above the historical average and way above the trailing 10-year average.

The talent of this year's team was above the historical average. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to expect more than a historically average record.

 

[Roustabout]

It seems all I hear from the "supposed negavols" is that CBJ is happy with (or at least accepting of) mediocrity - good but not great - because he simply doesnt have the skills to get us to glory and likely never will. Thus he tries to convince the fanbase that 8-9 wins is "good enough" for where we are at and that you should continually blindly hope for the future, because hey, you never know.

You people are silly. Its not that CBJ accepts or is happy with anything less than a championship - its just that he didnt get there this year (for a lot of reasons, some his fault and others not), and he is trying to re-frame to the positive. "Always be thinking positive" is likely something he buys into. I have absolutely no inside info whatsoever but CBJ presents as someone whom is 100% bought into the whole shtick, full on Knute Rockne style. And I doubt he could sell it if he wasnt.

Vol fans need to understand, they are likely NEVER to see CBJ speak a negative word about his coaches, players or lack of success, in a game or a season - or anyone else's for that matter. Its just not his style. Steve Spurrier he is not and never will be. Get used to it.

A pretty much universally accepted fact is that Butch has done a good job of resurrecting UT from the dumpster fire we were in for almost a decade. Where it wasnt a question of winning the Bowl game or griping about not getting the one we wanted but IF we would even get one. Now we are back to where winning seasons are expected as a given and EVERYONE expects UT to compete for the East at a minimum and have a real shot of getting to the playoffs. That deserves a lot of respect because no, we dont have winning seasons, bowl games and recruit top 10 just because we are Tennessee. It takes a lot of work and talent over other people who are trying to do exactly the same thing, especially in the SEC.

That said, NOBODY is satisfied with where we are at (ending as merely a top 25 program 2nd year in a row) - and that MOST ESPECIALLY includes "Lyle" Butch Jones. The good news is that he is fairly young for coaching a top program so he has energy and time to learn. I think it can be said that he has made the adjustment from mid major to power 5 and even as a competitive coach in the SEC but it remains to be seen if he can make the leap to being an elite coach. Will he succeed? I dont know but he is making adjustments, including coaching changes, etc, so perhaps he can. Lets all hope so but dont expect to hear anything but relentless coach speak to ever leave his lips. That is how he is wired and he (righly) thinks that the only difference between being laughed at and derided for his aphorisms versus seeing everyone declare them as pearls of genius that Vol Nation will put as Holy Writ on posters on their walls... is just 2-3 more wins per season :thumbsup:

Who hired Debord? This was a joke of a hire. How much further would UT be down the road if Butch hadnt bungles the OC and S&C? What the hell is there to understand?
Butch should have revamped his staff when he took the job.

 

[Grey_pilgrim]

2-2 vs Vandy

1-3 vs Florida

2-2 vs Georgia

0-4 vs Bama

0-4 vs rest of West division

14-18 SEC record


Dropped in recruiting rankings

Not even in top 5 recruiting in the SEC

The writing is on the wall

Better than Dooley. And back to back to back bowl wins for the first time in a long time. Sure he needs to continue improving but UT was a mess when he took over and we desperately needed stability.

Scar was a bad lose but Dobbs head was very much not in that game and he feels responsible for that loss. Plus whatever was going on with Hurd both contributed to that game. The Vandy game was absolutely awful. No excuses for that one.

We were decimated by injuries this year. And constantly had to shuffle both O and D lines. Not a recipe for success in the SEC. Next year we return a veteran O line and a RB poised for a breakout season. If one of our QBs can just get the ball to WRs consistently we should be fine on offense.

 

[sjt18]

The point is that's a horrible stat that really has no bearing. Most seasons were 10-11 games tops until the SEC expanded to 12 teams in the 90s. And the mandatory 12th game didn't occur to the mid 2000s. So your 8.7 stat is skewed because it doesn't factor in that 12 game scedules have only been around for a little over a decade. 8-2 and 9-1 is acceptable. 8-4 and 9-3 while good should never be our peak.

I think the season was 10 regular season games or less in most years prior to 1970.

 

[therickbol]

It seems all I hear from the "supposed negavols" is that CBJ is happy with (or at least accepting of) mediocrity - good but not great - because he simply doesnt have the skills to get us to glory and likely never will. Thus he tries to convince the fanbase that 8-9 wins is "good enough" for where we are at and that you should continually blindly hope for the future, because hey, you never know.

You people are silly. Its not that CBJ accepts or is happy with anything less than a championship - its just that he didnt get there this year (for a lot of reasons, some his fault and others not), and he is trying to re-frame to the positive. "Always be thinking positive" is likely something he buys into. I have absolutely no inside info whatsoever but CBJ presents as someone whom is 100% bought into the whole shtick, full on Knute Rockne style. And I doubt he could sell it if he wasnt.

Vol fans need to understand, they are likely NEVER to see CBJ speak a negative word about his coaches, players or lack of success, in a game or a season - or anyone else's for that matter. Its just not his style. Steve Spurrier he is not and never will be. Get used to it.

A pretty much universally accepted fact is that Butch has done a good job of resurrecting UT from the dumpster fire we were in for almost a decade. Where it wasnt a question of winning the Bowl game or griping about not getting the one we wanted but IF we would even get one. Now we are back to where winning seasons are expected as a given and EVERYONE expects UT to compete for the East at a minimum and have a real shot of getting to the playoffs. That deserves a lot of respect because no, we dont have winning seasons, bowl games and recruit top 10 just because we are Tennessee. It takes a lot of work and talent over other people who are trying to do exactly the same thing, especially in the SEC.

That said, NOBODY is satisfied with where we are at (ending as merely a top 25 program 2nd year in a row) - and that MOST ESPECIALLY includes "Lyle" Butch Jones. The good news is that he is fairly young for coaching a top program so he has energy and time to learn. I think it can be said that he has made the adjustment from mid major to power 5 and even as a competitive coach in the SEC but it remains to be seen if he can make the leap to being an elite coach. Will he succeed? I dont know but he is making adjustments, including coaching changes, etc, so perhaps he can. Lets all hope so but dont expect to hear anything but relentless coach speak to ever leave his lips. That is how he is wired and he (righly) thinks that the only difference between being laughed at and derided for his aphorisms versus seeing everyone declare them as pearls of genius that Vol Nation will put as Holy Writ on posters on their walls... is just 2-3 more wins per season :thumbsup:

This is way too much of a sane and rational post to be understood by the posters that need to read this post. To them, all that logic looks like Charlie Brown's teacher has been typing on volnation.

 

[therickbol]

It seems all I hear from the "supposed negavols" is that CBJ is happy with (or at least accepting of) mediocrity - good but not great - because he simply doesnt have the skills to get us to glory and likely never will. Thus he tries to convince the fanbase that 8-9 wins is "good enough" for where we are at and that you should continually blindly hope for the future, because hey, you never know.

You people are silly. Its not that CBJ accepts or is happy with anything less than a championship - its just that he didnt get there this year (for a lot of reasons, some his fault and others not), and he is trying to re-frame to the positive. "Always be thinking positive" is likely something he buys into. I have absolutely no inside info whatsoever but CBJ presents as someone whom is 100% bought into the whole shtick, full on Knute Rockne style. And I doubt he could sell it if he wasnt.

Vol fans need to understand, they are likely NEVER to see CBJ speak a negative word about his coaches, players or lack of success, in a game or a season - or anyone else's for that matter. Its just not his style. Steve Spurrier he is not and never will be. Get used to it.

A pretty much universally accepted fact is that Butch has done a good job of resurrecting UT from the dumpster fire we were in for almost a decade. Where it wasnt a question of winning the Bowl game or griping about not getting the one we wanted but IF we would even get one. Now we are back to where winning seasons are expected as a given and EVERYONE expects UT to compete for the East at a minimum and have a real shot of getting to the playoffs. That deserves a lot of respect because no, we dont have winning seasons, bowl games and recruit top 10 just because we are Tennessee. It takes a lot of work and talent over other people who are trying to do exactly the same thing, especially in the SEC.

That said, NOBODY is satisfied with where we are at (ending as merely a top 25 program 2nd year in a row) - and that MOST ESPECIALLY includes "Lyle" Butch Jones. The good news is that he is fairly young for coaching a top program so he has energy and time to learn. I think it can be said that he has made the adjustment from mid major to power 5 and even as a competitive coach in the SEC but it remains to be seen if he can make the leap to being an elite coach. Will he succeed? I dont know but he is making adjustments, including coaching changes, etc, so perhaps he can. Lets all hope so but dont expect to hear anything but relentless coach speak to ever leave his lips. That is how he is wired and he (righly) thinks that the only difference between being laughed at and derided for his aphorisms versus seeing everyone declare them as pearls of genius that Vol Nation will put as Holy Writ on posters on their walls... is just 2-3 more wins per season :thumbsup:

I posted this a little while ago in another thread:

CBJ took over a dumpster fire and has also won 9 games twice and is 3-0 in bowl games. Sooooo....hmmmm. Look, the point was not to diminish Franklin. It was to show that he had not done anything up until this season to PROVE that he could become an elite level coach. CBJ has not SHOWN that he is an elite coach up to this point. He has SHOWN that he is a very good coach. There are aspects of being a head coach that he is very good at and he has aspects of the job that he needs to improve on to become elite. He is in the same position many coaches find themselves in during their career.

The fans that hate him and are incapable of removing emotions from their opinions say stupid stuff like "he is terrible and can never be an elite coach" or "he will never win big at UT" and that is just false. He might never become an elite coach. We do not know. What we do know, based on what he HAS SHOWN is that he is very good at a lot of aspects of being a head coach. He has shown more in his career TO THIS POINT that Dabo did when he was 4 years into being a head coach. Dabo continued to grown as a head coach and developed a system that has put him in the conversation with the best coaches in college football. The actual evidence shows that CBJ has that possibility. He might also not grow and have peaked and never become elite. The problem is the idiot fans that think they have any idea whether he will. And it is mostly because they diminish what he has accomplished and have the emotional stability of a teenage girl and can't get over the fact that they don't like CBJ because he is boring and bland and uses cliches. Which is something that has nothing to do with his ability to be an elite coach. Saban is the most boring, bland, cliche coach in college football.

 

[sjt18]

Better than Dooley.

And THIS is the MOST illegitimate rationale for excusing Jones of all. If your standard is "better than Dooley" then we simply don't have the same standard. I believe UT's standard should be championships.... not "better than" a historically bad coach.

And back to back to back bowl wins for the first time in a long time. Sure he needs to continue improving but UT was a mess when he took over and we desperately needed stability.

He's beaten 3 Big 10 West teams in bowls... in each of those games because a win was left on the field during the regular season UT faced an overmatched opponent.

There have been a lot of "hot messes" that coaches have taken over. Ole Miss was. USCe was and still is. Vandy when Franklin arrived? There's a pretty long list of coaches who overachieved after taking over "messes".

Michigan was a mess which is instructive. They hired, and fired, a couple of coaches before finding one who met their standard. They apparently felt winning provided more stability than keeping the same coach.

Scar was a bad lose but Dobbs head was very much not in that game and he feels responsible for that loss. Plus whatever was going on with Hurd both contributed to that game. The Vandy game was absolutely awful. No excuses for that one.

There are no excuses for either of those games... and looking at TAM now... UT shouldn't have lost that one either.

We were decimated by injuries this year. And constantly had to shuffle both O and D lines. Not a recipe for success in the SEC. Next year we return a veteran O line and a RB poised for a breakout season. If one of our QBs can just get the ball to WRs consistently we should be fine on offense.

And there's another big problem. UT being "decimated" by injuries is not a new problem under Jones. Whether it is recruiting injury prone players, poor development, poor player rotation, practice methods, or something else... Jones has failed to fix a major and persistent problem. In the previous two years, a disproportionate number of injuries occurred during August. This year, there were even more injuries with most coming during the season.

This is not "luck". It is something different that UT is doing compared to other programs.