Butch Jones in the 4th quarter

#53
#53
tennfanatic said:
People will jump my ass for this post but I really like Butch honestly. I just didn't see him change his philosophy in the 4th quarter at any time last year against a quality opponent. When he got the lead he sat on the lead and prayed the game would end instead of going out and being more aggressive.
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Northwestern says that they wished that he had sit on the lead , but I can see your point
 
#54
#54
He was literally blasted by every sports writer/commentator in the country last year for his playing with the lead philosophy. Towards the end of the year we definitely kept the foot on the gas. But I know that's a lot easier to do against uk than bama. We'll see if he's smart enough to change. Otherwise his legacy will be...great recruiter, chicken $hit sideline coach. And eventually the recruits will stop wanting to play for him. Let's just hope...
 
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#55
#55
HoptownVol said:
You're using Northwestern as an example of the lights finally going on for Butch? LOL
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Yeah, might as well use the orange and white game too. Lol. We're not gonna know the answer til the 4-game stretch, beginning with Florida and ending with Bama, that will define our season.
 
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#56
#56
chattavol420 said:
He was literally blasted by every sports writer/commentator in the country last year for his playing with the lead philosophy. Towards the end of the year we definitely kept the foot on the gas. But I know that's a lot easier to do against uk than bama. We'll see if he's smart enough to change. Otherwise his legacy will be...great recruiter, chicken $hit sideline coach. And eventually the recruits will stop wanting to play for him. Let's just hope...
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All this is true. We don't actually even know if he "kept his foot on the gas" vs our opponents the second half of the season. It wasn't even necessary/required to handle those teams pretty handily. We're not gonna really know until the Florida through Alabama games this year.
 
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#57
#57
dduncan4163 said:
I don't see Butch changing either, but I don't worry about it now because we got Shoop running the D. Our problem last year was getting conservative on Offense AND Defense when we had a late lead. Shoop is not Janeck and will stay very aggressive until the game is done.

I personally think Shoops aggressive style is the number one reason Butch wanted him so bad. An aggressive D can close out a game just as quick as a aggressive O
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I thought Janeck did a hell of a job with the D last season. Its really hard for the D to go hard late in games, when their on the field so much with the O going on 3 and out sprees.
 
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#58
#58
jimallvol said:
I thought Janeck did a hell of a job with the D last season. Its really for the D to go hard late in games, when their on the field so much with the O going on 3 and out sprees.
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I think he did a lot of good things with them, it was the big calls that hurt so badly.

He developed our D impressively, I don't rag on him as much as some posters. But it's hard to deny the fatal judgement errors.
 
#59
#59
I think Butch isn't stuck in his ways. He's gotten rid of coordinators when he could've stuck with what he's comfortable with. He's upgraded at the D coordinator when we arguably had a perfectly successful one in Jancek. He's a smart guy, I think he'll learn from last seasons mistakes.

Plus, having quality depth across the board and a STUD defensive coordinator should be the difference between blowing 14 pt leads in the 4th quarter and closing the game out.
 
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#60
#60
There are certainly points to be made about his conservatism with leads, but I think just as much the finger needs to be pointed at the players. Back during our "glory years" under Fulmer(which I define as 95-01), we were a very conservative offense overall, but we still went 73-14 because in the 4th quarter when we had the lead and wanted to run the ball, we ran the ball down the throat of whoever the hell we wanted to.

I remember back in 01 specifically we had some astronomical time of possession in the 4th quarter. Travis Stephens and the offensive line punched every defense they faced in the mouth. A lot of people look back fondly on that year and how great of a team we were, but seem to forget how many of those games were nail biters going in to the 4th quarter, and our "conservative" gameplan of running the ball down the throat of every defense we played gave us the victory.

We didn't let opposing offenses touch the ball in the 4th quarter. That ball pretty much stayed in the hands of Travis Stephens.

That kind of offense works. It still works to this day. Does Butch need to open things up a bit more? Sure, but more importantly our offensive line has to learn how to take over the game in the 4th quarter. They couldn't do that this past season. We've got the QB to manage the game who can make plays when we need them(ala Martin and Clausen). We've got the running backs who can take it over(ala Lewis, Henry, Stephens). We need the o-line now.
 
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#61
#61
kunsanvol said:
He learned his lesson mid-way through the year. He's learning to coach in this league just like the players had to learn how to play in this league. I would not worry about it in the future.
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See south Carolina game don't think he 100% learned as we played same philosophy
 
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#62
#62
Titans4Vols said:
There are certainly points to be made about his conservatism with leads, but I think just as much the finger needs to be pointed at the players. Back during our "glory years" under Fulmer(which I define as 95-01), we were a very conservative offense overall, but we still went 73-14 because in the 4th quarter when we had the lead and wanted to run the ball, we ran the ball down the throat of whoever the hell we wanted to.

That kind of offense works. It still works to this day. Does Butch need to open things up a bit more? Sure, but more importantly our offensive line has to learn how to take over the game in the 4th quarter. They couldn't do that this past season. We've got the QB to manage the game who can make plays when we need them(ala Martin and Clausen). We've got the running backs who can take it over(ala Lewis, Henry, Stephens). We need the o-line now.
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This is actually the same philosophy that most coaches use when they have a lead in a big game. Run the ball - run the clock. When it doesn't work - everyone complains. When it does, the coach is a genius.

It makes no sense, IMO, for a coach to take chances with plays that can lead to quick scores for the other team or lead to a 3 and out trying plays that have not worked the entire game. It is a no win situation for a coach.

The Florida loss was more on the defense. Teams should not convert that many 4th downs. With Oklahoma - they were the better team and sometimes the better team finds a way to win.
 
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#63
#63
Typically we would start strong. About the second Qtr. The whole team seemed to think "we got this", at that point the execution would take a nose dive, while the play calls would shift conservative, both offense and defense.

This year I expect for that not to happen until a game is well in hand.

The way our last two bowl games have gone, I would take 15+ more in a row, and not even blink.

It's all about the approach to the game, we got on a run last year and it looks like it has carried over to this year.

I'm looking foward to this fall, but for the most part, this summer has been Awesome.

Go Vols!
 
#66
#66
Zetter said:
You can't teach and old dog new tricks. He still believes it is a process. Our only hope is that his recruiting has out performed his game management.
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This is just stinkin thinkin. Without Butch's game management, we wouldnt have won the games we did.
 
#67
#67
volfan102455 said:
This is actually the same philosophy that most coaches use when they have a lead in a big game. Run the ball - run the clock. When it doesn't work - everyone complains. When it does, the coach is a genius.

It makes no sense, IMO, for a coach to take chances with plays that can lead to quick scores for the other team or lead to a 3 and out trying plays that have not worked the entire game. It is a no win situation for a coach.

The Florida loss was more on the defense. Teams should not convert that many 4th downs. With Oklahoma - they were the better team and sometimes the better team finds a way to win.
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Look everyone! A post where someone used logic and common sense.

Plus 1
 
#69
#69
ajvol01 said:
Northwestern would lose to most SEC teams.

That is quality or mediocre?
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Your first statement cannot be proven with any fact. Only speculation. Northwestern beat a good Stanford team. That is fact. So using only facts, the assumption should be made that Northwestern is a quality opponent. Just because we destroyed them doesnt not mean they are not a quality team.
 
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#70
#70
BigOrangeTrain said:
Your first statement cannot be proven with any fact. Only speculation. Northwestern beat a good Stanford team. That is fact. So using only facts, the assumption should be made that Northwestern is a quality opponent. Just because we destroyed them doesnt not mean they are not a quality team.
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You have to understand. He has to say these thing (along with his buddy KB) so they can say "I told you so" if things go bad. But if things go well (like most think) they will say one of 2 things.
A) Shoop deserves all the credit and Butch was lucky to get him.
B) Butch finally learned.
 
#71
#71
ajvol01 said:
Northwestern would lose to most SEC teams.

That is quality or mediocre?
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BigOrangeTrain said:
Your first statement cannot be proven with any fact. Only speculation. Northwestern beat a good Stanford team. That is fact. So using only facts, the assumption should be made that Northwestern is a quality opponent. Just because we destroyed them doesnt not mean they are not a quality team.
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I agree with BOT. And acknowledging that it's only speculation, I would speculate that the 2015 Northwestern Wildcats would be at worst mid-pack among the 2015 SEC teams. Certainly better than 2015 Auburn, Mizzou, South Carolina, Kentucky, and Vandy. Certainly not as good as Bama, Ole Miss, Tennessee, or LSU. Argument could be made either way in comparison to Georgia, Arkansas, Florida (end-year FL, the meltdown version), A&M, and Miss St.

So somewhere middle of the pack. Just speculating. :)
 
#72
#72
VFL-82-JP said:
I agree with BOT. And acknowledging that it's only speculation, I would speculate that the 2015 Northwestern Wildcats would be at worst mid-pack among the 2015 SEC teams. Certainly better than 2015 Auburn, Mizzou, South Carolina, Kentucky, and Vandy. Certainly not as good as Bama, Ole Miss, Tennessee, or LSU. Argument could be made either way in comparison to Georgia, Arkansas, Florida (end-year FL, the meltdown version), A&M, and Miss St.

So somewhere middle of the pack. Just speculating. :)
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So, middle of the pack = quality?

NW wasn't bad. Just nowhere near great and not intimidating in any way.

Quality is a matter of opinion.

Good bowl win, but hardly something to brag about or stick your chest out.
 
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#73
#73
ajvol01 said:
So, middle of the pack = quality?

NW wasn't bad. Just nowhere near great and not intimidating in any way.

Quality is a matter of opinion.

Good bowl win, but hardly something to brag about or stick your chest out.
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You're right man. From the lowest we've been in generations to blowing out a top 15 team in a New Years day bowl. Nothing to be proud of.

Where the hell do you people come from. SMH
 
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#74
#74
ReaderVol said:
You're right man. From the lowest we've been in generations to blowing out a top 15 team in a New Years day bowl. Nothing to be proud of.

Where the hell do you people come from. SMH
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Been a member since 2009. And you?

Pride =/= bragging
 
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#75
#75
ajvol01 said:
So, middle of the pack = quality?

NW wasn't bad. Just nowhere near great and not intimidating in any way.

Quality is a matter of opinion.

Good bowl win, but hardly something to brag about or stick your chest out.
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Quality was your word, brother. I never used it.

Just saying, you were (speculatively) wrong when you said most SEC teams would've beaten NU last January. Good chance that most wouldn't have. But we did.
 
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