I just don't understand (Barnett vs Garrett)

#26
#26
BigOrangeTrain said:
Utter silliness. if you honestly think the NFL doesnt really care about stats then you're way behind the 8 ball.
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They care, but physical traits matter a lot more. Robert Meachem had better stats than Calvin Johnson as a junior, IIRC, and plenty of other receivers did as well.

Stats mainly matter in the sense that guys who are workout warriors but haven't been productive on the field at all (see RB Chris Henry) tend to be busts. NFL scouts really don't care whether someone was 4th in the nation or 18th in the nation in receiving yards. You have to reach a certain baseline to show that you can actually play and produce, but above that, it's more about film and traits than about numbers.
 
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#27
#27
WildTurkey said:
It's mainly because of the physical attributes/athleticism that Garrett has. It's freakish. Much like Clowney or Julius Peppers.

Barnett is a great athlete in his own right, but just not on the level of Garrett. Just doesn't have those jaw-drop plays like Garrett's int or Clowney's hit in the bowl game.

From a production standpoint, Barnett is second to none. He even graded out higher than anyone other than Bosa last year. I suspect he will have an outstanding Jr season and wonderful pro career.
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Sorry to disagree but I do. They're so close statistically that I don't see how anyone can say Garrett is that much better. That's a huge stretch imo.
 
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#28
#28
The Artful Dodger said:
Why Myles Garrett is considered as being so much better than Derek Barnett. There was a recent article put out by a "draft guru" (Dane Brugler), that said Garrett is by far the best prospect in the '17 draft and there is a drop-off after him.

Besides sacks, which Garrett only leads DB by 3.5 over two years (22.5-19), Barnett leads in almost every other statistical category. Most notably tackles and tackles for loss.

In their two years:
Barnett-142 tackles and 33 TFL
Garrett- 108 tackles and 32 TFL

I've had this conversation with a couple aggies and they argue that Garrett is double-teamed constantly. My response is "What elite D-end isn't double-teamed?" If anything Barnett saw more double-teams than Garrett, especially after Maggitt went out. Barnett didn't have the luxury of having a Daeshon Hall on the other end. Vareen is good, but doesn't have the talent of Hall. Also, Barnett's production against SEC competition has been better, while Garrett has gotten a large chunk of his production verses weak OOC teams. Garrett most definitely passes the eye test. He is a physical freak and a very gifted pass rusher, but I think that there is a strong argument to be made that Barnett is just as good and the numbers back that up.
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It will be just enough to piss off DB! He's a beast!!
 
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#32
#32
VKAman said:
They care, but physical traits matter a lot more. Robert Meachem had better stats than Calvin Johnson as a junior, IIRC, and plenty of other receivers did as well.

Stats mainly matter in the sense that guys who are workout warriors but haven't been productive on the field at all (see RB Chris Henry) tend to be busts. NFL scouts really don't care whether someone was 4th in the nation or 18th in the nation in receiving yards. You have to reach a certain baseline to show that you can actually play and produce, but above that, it's more about film and traits than about numbers.
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While I agree that Scouts view pure ability and film as being very important when thinking of drafting a player (They have too, cause if they went off of stats, DB would be rated higher than Garrett), Johnson didn't put up big numbers because he went to tech. I'm pretty sure Johnson would have put up the same if not better numbers than Meachem had he been at Tennessee or any other school that doesn't run the ball 90% of the time.

Side note- I never understood why Megatron would want to play in a triple-option offense.
 
#33
#33
QuickSmurf said:
Sorry to disagree but I do. They're so close statistically that I don't see how anyone can say Garrett is that much better. That's a huge stretch imo.
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I never said Garrett was better. The question in the OP was why Garrett was more sought after by pro scouts. I said it's because Garrett is a freak athlete who has made some freak athletic plays.

There is another thread comparing the two as players from a production standpoint, but I don't know how anyone could say Garrett isn't a more gifted athlete.
 
#34
#34
Well Garrett is an athletic freak which is very appealing to the eye and is why everyone has him rated as high as he is. However, DB has a motor like no other and has succeeded off of pure determination and I wouldn't trade him for anyone because of it. With that said, I'm pretty sure Volnation would not complain if Garrett played for the Orange and White. I know I wouldn't.
 
#35
#35
The Artful Dodger said:
While I agree that Scouts view pure ability and film as being very important when thinking of drafting a player (They have too, cause if they went off of stats, DB would be rated higher than Garrett), Johnson didn't put up big numbers because he went to tech. I'm pretty sure Johnson would have put up the same if not better numbers than Meachem had he been at Tennessee or any other school that doesn't run the ball 90% of the time.

Side note- I never understood why Megatron would want to play in a triple-option offense.
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They weren't a triple option offense when he was there. He played for Chan Gailey, now an NFL OC, and then they switched coaches after he left.
 
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#36
#36
WildTurkey said:
I never said Garrett was better. The question in the OP was why Garrett was more sought after by pro scouts. I said it's because Garrett is a freak athlete who has made some freak athletic plays.

There is another thread comparing the two as players from a production standpoint, but I don't know how anyone could say Garrett isn't a more gifted athlete.
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If Garrett didn't produce at nearly the same rate as Barnett this is more of a discussion. But they produced at about the same rate and Garrett has more versatility and upside.
 
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#37
#37
Watching DB closely since last season has shown me something. He plays with some of the best leverage I have ever seen. When he punches or lays a shoulder in, the guy hits with serious force.

As mentioned above, he is not flashy. At all. Very workman like, with no wasted movement, and is always aggressive yet in excellent position. He's really good in run support.

He will be lusted after by more than a few teams, even outside his ability to rush passers.
 
#38
#38
WildTurkey said:
but it's not the impact moment, game-altering, oh-my gosh-did-he-just die on-live-tv hit that Clowney put on that poor tailback. That was other-worldly.
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I'd beg to differ on that other worldly "you think he's going to feel that tomorrow" kind of hit from DB.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNPOmuXhJXc[/youtube]
 
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#39
#39
I think some of the reason the NFL loves Garrett is because he can play OLB in a base 3-4 defense and can be a pure edge rusher. I believer Barnett is a straight up defensive end, but I wouldn't trade him for any defensive end in the country. Much better in run support than Garrett. If Khalil has a good year this year and Vereen and Kongbo hold down that other spot I think we could possibly see Barnett break Reggie Whites record for career sacks.
 
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#40
#40
Never left the field in 2015 except for mop up time which might explain some of the comments saying he takes plays off? I hope they feel good enough with the DE depth to sub him out some in 2016. Might allow him the extra energy to generate a few of those highlight type plays?
 
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#42
#42
The Artful Dodger said:
Agree with a lot of what you said. I read where Barnett is really trying to pass White for the sack record this year, so hopefully that means he will have a full year of consistent production and not take 4-5 games to get going. If he can equal his end of year production in the first half of the season, then he should have some truly gaudy numbers. Also, my hope is that Kongbo can take some of the pressure off of DB, if JK stays a DE.
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Barnett has had surgery thE last 2 off seasons.Could explain the little bit of a slow start he has gotten off too.
 
#43
#43
Grand Vol said:
I'd beg to differ on that other worldly "you think he's going to feel that tomorrow" kind of hit from DB.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNPOmuXhJXc[/youtube]
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Ok for the record, you made me do this. I didn't want to. I love DB and hope he is a hall of famer. But surely nobody can compare these two hits?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIu22jokKKk[/youtube]
 
#45
#45
WildTurkey said:
Ok for the record, you made me do this. I didn't want to. I love DB and hope he is a hall of famer. But surely nobody can compare these two hits?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIu22jokKKk[/youtube]
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so you are in awe because the players helmet came off? They both were good hits. The RB said the hit looked worse than it was. Vincent Smith of Michigan Wolverines talks about hit by Jadeveon Clowney of South Carolina Gamecocks

however the NW QB was actually hurt. If CBJ had not taken a timeout, the QB was coming out of the game.
 
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#46
#46
Clowney's was a violent head-on crash. I'm thinking that would be a beautiful demo on how to get tossed today.
 
#48
#48
WildTurkey said:
It's mainly because of the physical attributes/athleticism that Garrett has. It's freakish. Much like Clowney or Julius Peppers.

Barnett is a great athlete in his own right, but just not on the level of Garrett. Just doesn't have those jaw-drop plays like Garrett's int or Clowney's hit in the bowl game.

From a production standpoint, Barnett is second to none. He even graded out higher than anyone other than Bosa last year. I suspect he will have an outstanding Jr season and wonderful pro career.
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Honestly, the only real difference I see between Barnett and Garrett is Garrett celebrates more after the tackle. Is that what you refer to as freakish physical attributes and athleticism? :blink: :unsure: :no:
 
#49
#49
WildTurkey said:
Ok for the record, you made me do this. I didn't want to. I love DB and hope he is a hall of famer. But surely nobody can compare these two hits?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIu22jokKKk[/youtube]
Click to expand...

You don't think Barnett is capable of the same ferocity as that hit? He ended up taking the Northwestern QB off his feet for over a yard. And that's after getting blocked.

Imagine that scary man coming at you full speed...

Call me a homer, but I wasn't as impressed with Clowney after that season. I know he was plagued by injuries, but his stats didn't reflect what he could and should have been. Between the two? I'd take DB all day long.
 
#50
#50
TNnative said:
Honestly, the only real difference I see between Barnett and Garrett is Garrett celebrates more after the tackle. Is that what you refer to as freakish physical attributes and athleticism? :blink: :unsure: :no:
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Haha no that's not it. Please stop. It doesn't make anyone less of a Vol fan to acknowledge that Myles Garrett is a better athlete than Barnett. He is. Period.

It doesn't mean Garrett is a better player. It doesn't mean he'll have a better career or make more money. It doesn't mean he has a prettier girlfriend or a nicer apartment. He's just a better athlete.

And to whoever said the Clowney hit only happened because he was unblocked, so what? It was devastating physically and competitively - changed the outcome of the game. Highlight for the ages. Doesn't make Barnett's sack any less appreciated to say so. That sack probably isn't even Barnett's best play to be honest.
 
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