2016 Election

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#8,426
#8,426
carlos86 said:
The days are coming when all the cashiers will be automated and it will be 2 guys there to make sure they work.
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A time is coming when we may not even have need for freight drivers anymore. Parcel deliverers will probably still be needed, however, as I don't see any feasible means (at the moment, at least) for robotics being able to quickly and efficiently get parcels from truck to receiver like a driver.

This will still all take another decade or two to fully materialize, of course, but, make no mistake, it is coming. The super wealthy cannot be stopped, and what's more, the average spender doesn't want it to stop, no matter how much he or she may complain about. The fact of the matter is they like their cheap stuff, just as long as it being so cheap doesn't actually affect their job situation.

Another thing we haven't even addressed yet, concerning why "winning again" like pre-NAFTA, pre-neoliberal economics will be nearly impossible to re-implement, is the inevitability of cheap (and possibly free) energy. While I don't think energy will stay as cheap as it currently is permanently, I think it is only a matter of time before it does go down for good. In another couple of decades, alternatives are going to rip conventionals to shreds, and with such cheap transportation costs, what further incentive would transnational capital have to move their factories back to the US?

There was a brief moment a couple years ago when some manufacturers were starting to move back stateside due to the huge transportation costs at play with energy at an all-time high. However, energy has gone down, and with it any incentive to come back stateside again.

This is another reason why America needs to be leading the way with alternatives, like Obama said in his last State of the Union. It is the future, and it is inevitable. We may as well try to corner the market on it for American jobs as best as we can.
 
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volprof said:
You think even an American president can combat this inevitability? You think large international businesses want to keep paying American laborers $20-30 an hour for making things some Southeast Asian could make for $3 a day and in a factory setting that doesn't have to worry about regulations?

Well, perhaps an American president can try, but that doesn't mean large corporations have to like it. They'll just move their asses somewhere else, unless you're planning on nationalizing our industries.

Just for the record, aren't you one that's against a higher minimum wage too, or am I mistaken?
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Are you saying that there is no need for any low skilled workers in this country? Are all the illegals mechanical engineers or something?
 
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#8,428
Franklin Pierce said:
Rainbow Rubio had the endorsements of the most popular governor in the nation, and the hugely popular black U.S. Senator in South Carolina, and still got trounced by a man from the state of New York who has never ran for political office.

Rubio is one step closer to becoming president.
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We are talking about South Carolinians here.
 
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#8,429
n_huffhines said:
How about we subsidize my job? That sounds good to me.

Do you know why we lose jobs to automation and foreign manufacturers? Because there are better ways to do things. There is no good reason for pretending that these jobs are necessary. Let's put these people to work doing needed jobs.
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There's an argument to be made for keeping a domestic manufacturing base, most notably so that it can transition quickly to a war-time posture in the event of a major war, but you're largely right.

I said that which you quoted largely as a means of placating the masses and giving them something to do, but history will largely prove even that gesture ultimately outmoded and useless.
 
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#8,430
volprof said:
There's an argument to be made for keeping a domestic manufacturing base, most notably so that it can transition quickly to a war-time posture in the event of a major war, but you're largely right.

I said that which you quoted largely as a means of placating the masses and giving them something to do, but history will largely prove even that gesture ultimately outmoded and useless.
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Is this really a benefit? Seems like something that used to be true, but times have changed drastically.
 
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1972 Grad said:
Are you saying that there is no need for any low skilled workers in this country? Are all the illegals mechanical engineers or something?
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Difference is those illegals often work for lower wages and live multiple families (or at least multiple men) to one dwelling, which means they can afford to work low skilled jobs at lower wages.

Meanwhile, Americans all think they need a completely separate dwelling, privacy, HBO, and a cell phone. Low skilled jobs aren't going to get them out of "poverty" anymore, at least as long as they still insist on the illusion of living like middle-class families.
 
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volprof said:
Difference is those illegals often work for lower wages and live multiple families (or at least multiple men) to one dwelling, which means they can afford to work low skilled jobs at lower wages.

Meanwhile, Americans all think they need a completely separate dwelling, privacy, HBO, and a cell phone. Low skilled jobs aren't going to get them out of "poverty" anymore, at least as long as they still insist on the illusion of living like middle-class families.
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So, the only way to compete with illegals is to live like they do? What would happen if the illegals weren't here, and there was no such thing as unemployment insurance and welfare as a backup? Do you think that our citizens would do those jobs and change their lifestyle, or would they starve?
 
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#8,434
#8,434
DinkinFlicka said:
We are talking about South Carolinians here.
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It took South Carolinians 150 years and one of the worst terrorist events in this nation's history to finally realize they lost the Civil War.

I doubt whether we should put too much stock into their voting habits.
 
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#8,435
#8,435
volprof said:
Difference is those illegals often work for lower wages and live multiple families (or at least multiple men) to one dwelling, which means they can afford to work low skilled jobs at lower wages.

Meanwhile, Americans all think they need a completely separate dwelling, privacy, HBO, and a cell phone. Low skilled jobs aren't going to get them out of "poverty" anymore, at least as long as they still insist on the illusion of living like middle-class families.
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Most Americans think they should be paid $10-15 an hour for an low wage job. That's just not the reality.
 
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#8,437
volprof said:
It took South Carolinians 150 years and one of the worst terrorist events in this nation's history to finally realize they lost the Civil War.

I doubt whether we should put too much stock into their voting habits.
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And 32% of them still wish the South had won the Civil War.
 
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#8,438
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1972 Grad said:
So, the only way to compete with illegals is to live like they do? What would happen if the illegals weren't here, and there was no such thing as unemployment insurance and welfare as a backup? Do you think that our citizens would do those jobs and change their lifestyle, or would they starve?
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You seem to be arguing for a reactionary economics. What I'm saying is that those days are over, no matter how moral or immoral, how just or unjust. Either adapt or get left behind. We can try to do the things you say, but I think history will ultimately overwhelm us.

Adapt, adapt, adapt. That is the rule of modernity, especially postmodernity. If you don't do it, someone else will. I see no real long-term benefit in treating our economy permanently like it's still the 1980s.
 
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#8,441
#8,441
volprof said:
You seem to be arguing for a reactionary economics. What I'm saying is that those days are over, no matter how moral or immoral, how just or unjust. Either adapt or get left behind. We can try to do the things you say, but I think history will ultimately overwhelm us.

Adapt, adapt, adapt. That is the rule of modernity, especially postmodernity. If you don't do it, someone else will. I see no real long-term benefit in treating our economy permanently like it's still the 1980s.
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Do those 3 things and stop acting like it's the damn 1980s.
 

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#8,442
#8,442
carlos86 said:
Most Americans think they should be paid $10-15 an hour for an low wage job. That's just not the reality.
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Here's where I will disagree with you a bit, because I do think we're able to pay a higher minimum wage, somewhere within the range you mention. Now, that requires some other compromises and concessions, most notably a lower corporate tax rate, but I believe it can be done and done well. European countries can do it and do it well. I don't buy the argument that we can't. The only reason why Europe is going to have a long-term problem with it is due to failing demographics, but we don't really share that problem at the moment.

Even so, the ultimate ticket out of poverty is investing in skills. So even a higher minimum wage will not be a cure-all. Just a temporary bandaid.
 
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#8,443
Grand Vol said:
It also has the ability to transition quickly into a peacetime economy such as what we saw after WWII.
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Yeah, but we had a competitive advantage in manufacturing labor back then. We don't anymore and that benefit is mitigated, IMO. Automation is the biggest reason we still do manufacturing here.
 
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n_huffhines said:
Yeah, but we had a competitive advantage in manufacturing labor back then. We don't anymore and that benefit is mitigated, IMO. Automation is the biggest reason we still do manufacturing here.
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We had a huge advantage in labor after WWII. America was untouched by the war and the world depended on our exports to rebuild.
 
#8,445
#8,445
n_huffhines said:
How about we subsidize my job? That sounds good to me.

Do you know why we lose jobs to automation and foreign manufacturers? Because there are better ways to do things. There is no good reason for pretending that these jobs are necessary. Let's put these people to work doing needed jobs.
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Rs claim to love the free market and competition until jobs are brought into things.

If your job can be done by an 8 year old in China, maybe you should've tried harder in school
 
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#8,446
#8,446
Vol8188 said:
Rs claim to love the free market and competition until jobs are brought into things.

If your job can be done by an 8 year old in China, maybe you should've tried harder in school
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I just hate the idea that there are certain types of jobs we need to protect. The market will dictate where people should work based on competitive advantage, we'll do what we're best at, and we'll get richer doing it.
 
#8,447
#8,447
volprof said:
You seem to be arguing for a reactionary economics. What I'm saying is that those days are over, no matter how moral or immoral, how just or unjust. Either adapt or get left behind. We can try to do the things you say, but I think history will ultimately overwhelm us.

Adapt, adapt, adapt. That is the rule of modernity, especially postmodernity. If you don't do it, someone else will. I see no real long-term benefit in treating our economy permanently like it's still the 1980s.
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So, there will no longer be a need for low skilled workers? If everyone suddenly becomes a rocket scientist, who will clean the rooms in the motels and hospitals? Who lays bricks, who mows yards, etc, etc, etc?
 
#8,449
#8,449
1972 Grad said:
So, would there be 2 countries now or one? Slavery would no longer exist either way. What would be different?
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Between now this and defending violence advocates (Swedish Mob thread, by the way) and theocrats, I think you just do things to intentionally be contrarian. It's getting harder and harder for me to take you serious.
 
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