Gun control debate (merged)

#2,376
#2,376
1972 Grad said:
My parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts had no education past high school. My brother was the first to graduate, or even attend college, and I was second. They were all born quite poor.

My paternal grandfather came out of a mining camp near Appalachia, Va., went through the 3rd grade, but was later self educated as a bridge and building engineer, and became a successful businessman. They had zero privilege. They would be known known as poor white trash. I am damn proud of them, and am grateful for the work ethic, and personal responsibility they passed on to me.
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And these success stories happen everyday, but as a practical matter those born to the educated tend to value education.
 
#2,377
#2,377
ClearwaterVol said:
And these success stories happen everyday, but as a practical matter those born to the educated tend to value education.
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True. I was told that I was going to college fairly early, because my parents weren't able to. They were both very intelligent people, but both went to work early to help support their families. Remember, this was in the very early 1930's during the Great Depression. They didn't have the opportunity to go to college, but they made sure their 2 sons went and graduated.
 
#2,378
#2,378
ClearwaterVol said:
I grew up in a home with both parents present. Both had a college degree and or advanced degrees. All four of my grandparents had college degrees. All of their parents had college degrees. So now we are at a generation that was born in the late 1800s. How many black people can say the same?

College wasn't an option for me any more than high school was an option. It was just expected. I had stables and a tennis court in my yard. I grew up socializing with people of means. I am comfortable and know how to act around people that have some measure of affluence and power. How many black people can claim the same?

That being said, I am responsible for any success that I have enjoyed, but my white privilege and economic privilege gave me an advantage. I dropped out of college and got married. Eventually, I returned and paid my own way and obtained my degrees. That doesn't mean that I cannot appreciate the advantages that I had, if only in terms of education. White people are about twice as likely to have a college degree than their black counterparts. Thus, in black families, a college degree is more likely to be regarded as a goal rather than an expectation.
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So who's fault is that? So it's white people's fault that the black family doesn't have drive? They have much more opportunity for scholarships. Many times they have an advantage in employment.
 
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#2,379
#2,379
ClearwaterVol said:
Because I feel there is a problem, I feel guilty? I don't even know how to respond to such a non-sense suggestion.

I carry zero guilt. I just feel there is a need to address a situation that could result in a stronger and better America.
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Doesn't make sense. We have free education in government schools. No reason that everybody doesn't have the same opportunity. Government is seeing to that. If we elect either of the candidates on the democrat party, it will get nothing but better. There will be more government in our lives. Kids will excel at amazing rates. Poverty will go away.

And your statement on this post that you carry zero guilt is not borne out by your other posts.

So since I obviously missed what you are throwing out... :crazy: what situation are you talking about?
 
#2,380
#2,380
InVOLuntary said:
So who's fault is that? So it's white people's fault that the black family doesn't have drive? They have much more opportunity for scholarships. Many times they have an advantage in employment.
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Education isn't equal and it has not been that long since blacks weren't even allowed into some colleges. The issues were hundreds of years in the making, its unlikely we will fix them in 50. The best teachers don't want to teach in the worst schools. I don't blame them but the quality of the education suffers.

Space - I don't carry any guilt about the situation and nothing in my posts indicates I do. I do think that if the problem is addressed it is beneficial to all. Quite frankly, I would like to live in welfare free state. I would settle for a reduction in those programs.
 
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#2,381
#2,381
ClearwaterVol said:
You have not correctly identified the issue. White privilege refers to the line of thinking that believes that being white give the person a built in advantage. You're an a$$hole if you don't acknowledge that 99.9% of the time being white is an advantage. If you are going to succeed in life as a black person, its not enough to be as good as your white counterpart, you need to be better.
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This is not entirely true in today's EEOC world. An educated black person..... Especially a black woman has tremendous potential in larger organizations. If you don't believe this you've got your head in the sand.
 
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#2,383
#2,383
1972 Grad said:
My parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts had no education past high school. My brother was the first to graduate, or even attend college, and I was second. They were all born quite poor.

My paternal grandfather came out of a mining camp near Appalachia, Va., went through the 3rd grade, but was later self educated as a bridge and building engineer, and became a successful businessman. They had zero privilege. They would be known known as poor white trash. I am damn proud of them, and am grateful for the work ethic, and personal responsibility they passed on to me.
Click to expand...

My grandfather worked in a coal mine on the VA/KY/WV border for awhile. He was the 2nd oldest so he had to go when he was 15 or 16. He said his older brother could outwork him and his younger brothers couldn't feed themselves so he was expendable.
 
#2,384
#2,384
hog88 said:
My grandfather worked in a coal mine on the VA/KY/WV border for awhile. He was the 2nd oldest so he had to go when he was 15 or 16. He said his older brother could outwork him and his younger brothers couldn't feed themselves so he was expendable.
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Those were real men who worked the mines in the early 1900's.
 
#2,385
#2,385
1972 Grad said:
Those were real men who worked the mines in the early 1900's.
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Some of the stories he told were jaw dropping.

He decided he had had enough when one of the carts got away, rolled over a guys leg cutting it off. The foreman yelled at those trying to help that they had better things to do and get back to work, they couldn't help him.

He left that day and walked over 100 miles back home.
 
#2,386
#2,386
hog88 said:
Some of the stories he told were jaw dropping.

He decided he had had enough when one of the carts got away, rolled over a guys leg cutting it off. The foreman yelled at those trying to help that they had better things to do and get back to work, they couldn't help him.

He left that day and walked over 100 miles back home.
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I think that a case could be made that those miners had it equally as hard as slaves. The only real difference is that they could leave, and they weren't whipped, but a lot died or were badly injured, or died of black lung.

I said that they could leave. Of course, there really wasn't anywhere to go, and they lived in company housing just like the slaves. They were "owned" by the company, more or less.
 
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#2,387
#2,387
ClearwaterVol said:
Education isn't equal and it has not been that long since blacks weren't even allowed into some colleges. The issues were hundreds of years in the making, its unlikely we will fix them in 50. The best teachers don't want to teach in the worst schools. I don't blame them but the quality of the education suffers.

Space - I don't carry any guilt about the situation and nothing in my posts indicates I do. I do think that if the problem is addressed it is beneficial to all. Quite frankly, I would like to live in welfare free state. I would settle for a reduction in those programs.
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That's old news. Anyone, black, white, Hispanic, Asian, can exceed in this country if they put forth effort. Blaming something that happened over 200 years ago that I agree the after effects lasted for a considerable time longer is why we are where we are now.

I contend if we'd have taught people how to fish instead of giving them fish, things would be better now. This is not race specific either. Many whites in poverty are in the same trap. Used to you didn't have the government to make sure you were comfortable. Used to if you didn't work you starved, were homeless. Right or wrong that drives people to make their lives better. Now, no job means, money, food, housing, cable TV, cell phones, transportation, and all the health care you need. All for not working. The min you start to work, the min you lose things. Many of these people have lost their dignity and are complacent with a life like that.
 
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#2,388
#2,388
hog88 said:
In the scenario presented, Cleatus walked up on a potential shooter, he hadn't fired yet and wasn't pointing his weapon at Cleatus. So Cleatus gets charged and sued for the deaths of the 3 women. Same should apply to a police.
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I agree. I just wanted to see if hunt would be intellectually consistent.
 
#2,390
#2,390
InVOLuntary said:
That's old news. Anyone, black, white, Hispanic, Asian, can exceed in this country if they put forth effort. Blaming something that happened over 200 years ago that I agree the after effects lasted for a considerable time longer is why we are where we are now.

I contend if we'd have taught people how to fish instead of giving them fish, things would be better now. This is not race specific either. Many whites in poverty are in the same trap. Used to you didn't have the government to make sure you were comfortable. Used to if you didn't work you starved, were homeless. Right or wrong that drives people to make their lives better. Now, no job means, money, food, housing, cable TV, cell phones, transportation, and all the health care you need. All for not working. The min you start to work, the min you lose things. Many of these people have lost their dignity and are complacent with a life like that.
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I agree with your last paragraph. It is something that needs to be addressed now.
 
#2,392
#2,392
InVOLuntary said:
That's old news. Anyone, black, white, Hispanic, Asian, can exceed in this country if they put forth effort. Blaming something that happened over 200 years ago that I agree the after effects lasted for a considerable time longer is why we are where we are now.

I contend if we'd have taught people how to fish instead of giving them fish, things would be better now. This is not race specific either. Many whites in poverty are in the same trap. Used to you didn't have the government to make sure you were comfortable. Used to if you didn't work you starved, were homeless. Right or wrong that drives people to make their lives better. Now, no job means, money, food, housing, cable TV, cell phones, transportation, and all the health care you need. All for not working. The min you start to work, the min you lose things. Many of these people have lost their dignity and are complacent with a life like that.
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ClearwaterVol said:
I agree with your last paragraph. It is something that needs to be addressed now.
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CW: What was wrong with his first paragraph, and how do you rectify the second?
 
#2,394
#2,394
CNCVol88 said:
I was the one that asked the question and so I'll ask it a third time.

In your hypothetical mass shooter situation, exchange cleetus the CCW permit holder with Jim Bob the Police officer. Jim Bob also stops the mass shooting with his regulation Sig Sauer .45 and ends up killing the same 3 women in the crossfire. If cleetus is to be charged and possibly indicted for their death on a negligent homicide, would you recommend the same fate for Jim Bob the Police officer?
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If the police officer's actions were grossly negligent, then he should also be held accountable. However, the difference between Cleetus and Jim Bob is that Jim Bob is employed to protect and serve the citizens of that particular city, county, or state as a licensed law enforcement officer while Cleetus in not employed in said capacity.
 
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#2,395
#2,395
bnhunt said:
If the police officer's actions were grossly negligent, then he should also be held accountable. However, the difference between Cleetus and Jim Bob is that Jim Bob is employed to protect and serve the citizens of that particular city, county, or state as a licensed law enforcement officer while Cleetus in not employed in said capacity.
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You can't be serious with this reasoning? Please tell me you're out of blue font.
 
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#2,399
#2,399
What if Cleetus was a veteran? Or better yet, a guardsman or reservist? He swore an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic? Oh and Cleetus is a guardsman, Posse Comitatus doesn't apply. Oh wait never mind, all veterans and military personnel have PTSD and need their guns confiscated. /blue font
 
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