Drae Bowles

[82_VOL_83]

The only part of this whole debate that is not complete conjecture is that a Title IX lawsuit was files against some players, current and not current, Lil Jon and the University.

Other than that there is nothing in this thread except conjecture or opinion.

Conjecture much?

 

[Vol Karma]

2) women in general have to have a keen sense of "situational awareness". and that's not fair. but, as you saad, is reality.

Now this is how you state it. Not with shark metaphors.

 

[jakez4ut]

Now this is how you state it. Not with shark metaphors.

situational awareness applies to all walks of life...your job, social settings...whatever. but it requires some developing. you can't have situational awareness unless you've been made aware of certain situations. you don't know what you don't know right? and unfortunately some aspects of situational awareness are learned thru "lessons learned the hard way".

as parents that means you have to have tough conversations with your kids. about all kinds of different topics. for my girls, this will unfortunately be one of them.

in the end, for me, all i can do is talk to them, give them the information as i understand it, share experiences relevant, and trust they'll make good decisions more times than not. it won't be left up to chance, nor will it be left to some bureaucratic red tape infested policy...if i were a parent of a son playing D1 college football, that conversation may be more in light of don't put yourself in a situation where things could be misconstrued....know your audience.....be aware that sometimes girls will do things just for the attention and it may have nothing to do with you at all.....

so it goes both ways.

 

[ptcarter]

situational awareness applies to all walks of life...your job, social settings...whatever. but it requires some developing. you can't have situational awareness unless you've been made aware of certain situations. you don't know what you don't know right? and unfortunately some aspects of situational awareness are learned thru "lessons learned the hard way".

Agree. Alcohol drops the force field - especially large quantities.

I've been out of UT for more than 35 years. I now have two kids there.

Alcohol was prevalent then - legal age was 18. I saw lots of people who over did it. I've learned a term from my kids called "blackout drunk". Are kids today drinking harder than they did in the '70s and '80s?

Maybe. Not all rules apply to all kids. Situations vary.

My kids have been in social situations where this type of drinking was going on. Easy to see how trouble is just around the corner.

In the right crowd, a bad hangover may be the only price to pay. In the wrong crowd, where "situational awareness" is needed, the price to pay may be much higher.

 

[82_VOL_83]

ImportedVoL's shark comment is part of the problem. People who make comments like that are the people I warn my daughter about.

Also I have been around many a drunk women after 2am, myself drunk, partying, etc., and guess what? No one got sexually assaulted.

That you know of.

 

[mscelinaVol]

"I threatened to kill my scummy ex-SIL via text once after he raped and beat my daughter. Fortunately, I haven't been convicted of attempted murder yet although I assure you the urge is still very real. Always will be."

mscelina,
Had the scummy ex-SIL turned up murdered, your text would have been a big piece of evidence against you. As an aside, I think it demonstrates God's infinite wisdom in his giving me sons. Had I a daughter in such a situation, my text would be informing where to pick up the body.

Perhaps so. But fortunately, the chicken sh*t was in Chicago and murder isn't my gig. Which is kind of my point. Texting flirtatious comments doesn't prove intent to engage in sex anymore than me telling that slimy scumsucking asshat that I would strangle his 6'4" 250 lb ass if he showed up on my porch indicates I planned to actually commit murder. If he had shown up at my door things might have been different--because of my husband--but I doubt it. Our intention was his arrest and conviction. Which we accomplished.

For all the good it did.

All I know for certain is that when I was single and dating, I texted flirtatious comments to guys. Doesn't mean I slept with them...or that they expected me to either.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Looks to me like his entire post boils down to "women shouldn't do what men get to do (drink, get drunk, go out, party, dress how they'd like) because men can't help themselves and will just have to rape them"

Not what he intended, I didn't take it that way. Get over yourself.

 

[chargervol]

Agree. Alcohol drops the force field - especially large quantities.

I've been out of UT for more than 35 years. I now have two kids there.

Alcohol was prevalent then - legal age was 18. I saw lots of people who over did it. I've learned a term from my kids called "blackout drunk". Are kids today drinking harder than they did in the '70s and '80s?

Maybe. Not all rules apply to all kids. Situations vary.

My kids have been in social situations where this type of drinking was going on. Easy to see how trouble is just around the corner.

In the right crowd, a bad hangover may be the only price to pay. In the wrong crowd, where "situational awareness" is needed, the price to pay may be much higher.

I watched a segment on this very question not long ago
Those interviewed seemed to believe so and had a list as to why.
1. Caffeinated alcohol. Apparently it staves off normal sleepiness associated with drinking and can counter passing out.
2 Culture. Kids used to have more of a habit of trying to talk friends out of embarrassing themselves. Now they encourage it and post it on youtube.
3. Money. Said modern parents are giving kids larger amounts of spending cash. We used to go broke and have to call it a night more often.
4. More common to combine drinking with a drug. All kinds of new drugs in pill form etc.. now. Much easier to carry and consume than pot and doesn't stay detectable as long.

 

[ImportedVoL]

This is really damn upsetting. Really, really upsetting. And even more upsetting is that this opinion is held by so many people. Men, in this scenario, are bloodthirsty sharks who cannot help themselves, just because of how a woman is dressed? And the woman is at fault?

This is really upsetting that reading comprehension has fallen to this level...read my statement again and see if I am blaming women, or begging them to be smart enough to protect themselves.

 

[Kristy*]

Perhaps so. But fortunately, the chicken sh*t was in Chicago and murder isn't my gig. Which is kind of my point. Texting flirtatious comments doesn't prove intent to engage in sex anymore than me telling that slimy scumsucking asshat that I would strangle his 6'4" 250 lb ass if he showed up on my porch indicates I planned to actually commit murder. If he had shown up at my door things might have been different--because of my husband--but I doubt it. Our intention was his arrest and conviction. Which we accomplished.

For all the good it did.

All I know for certain is that when I was single and dating, I texted flirtatious comments to guys. Doesn't mean I slept with them...or that they expected me to either.

I feel that all the information should be accessible. From there, it can be determined if it is pertinent. Of course you are right that it wouldn't matter if she was flirting and leading him on in any way whatsoever. What would matter is if she sent a text to a friend saying she was going to get back at him. Or if she sent any texts to him or anyone after saying or implying it was consensual. The information should be available.

And from my stance, I find it awfully suspicious that she and her friend throw away phones a day after the incident and are unwilling to cooperate in the retrieval of their texts.

Side note: I'm truly sorry for your personal experiences. Nobody should have to go through that.

 

[ImportedVoL]

He actually prefaced with "I am not condoning rape in ANY way... but"

That's no different than "I'm not racist, but" or "I'm not sexist, but"

see: racist
see: sexist
see: putting fault of rapes on victims

Yes..rape is bad, awful and people who do it need to rot in jail for a very long time...but, women also need to learn to protect themselves from these people and not walk into these situations with a false sense of I "should" be able to do anything I want..

Do you teach children that they "should" be able to follow any stranger to their van with promises of candy. Because people shouldn't be kidnapping and abusing them

Or do you teach them to not talk/follow strangers anywhere.

Wake up and look at the world we live in..what someone should be able to do, and what they can do are two very different things.

 

[jakez4ut]

Something else that has gotten kind of lost in all this is that this lawsuit is about the environment and culture that has been created. it's not that these things happened or didn't happen.

so if you take that for what it is, and you go thru the 2 or 3 threads that are related to this topic, ask yourself, are these opinions the types of things that would contribute to a perception of that kind of environment ? and if so, is it possible if these opinions are shared by this many people in this forum, isn't also possible that these same types of thought processes are shared by at least some of the players and administrators?

i saw a post in another thread where the girl was called stupid for going back to same players place the day after his advances were rebutted, but then quickly stating, but she didn't deserve to be raped.

well, again, i don't think anyone would say anyone deserves to be raped. but when we start making excuses for the accused, that in and of itself is creating the exact environment they are looking to expose in this suit. and is one of the primary reasons many rape and sexual assault cases are never even reported.

just something to think about, since this isn't a suit about did he or didn't he...it's all together different, as this deals solely with the environment/culture and the processes/procedures used administratively to deal with these incidents.

 

[ImportedVoL]

He actually prefaced with "I am not condoning rape in ANY way... but"

That's no different than "I'm not racist, but" or "I'm not sexist, but"

see: racist
see: sexist
see: putting fault of rapes on victims

OK let's use your own example

I am not racist..but..probably not smart for a black person to walk into KKK or neo nazi meeting, cussing out the people inside..

Now that person ends up dead...does my statement in any way condone murder?

It is this simple..

Be smart not dead...
Be smart, not a rape victim...

This is no way places blame on victims or excuses the perpetrators of said crimes..

 

[Iam4utalways]

Yes..rape is bad, awful and people who do it need to rot in jail for a very long time...but(AND),women also need to learn to protect themselves from these people and not walk into these situations with a false sense of I "should" be able to do anything I want..

Do you teach children that they "should" be able to follow any stranger to their van with promises of candy. Because people shouldn't be kidnapping and abusing them

Or do you teach them to not talk/follow strangers anywhere.

Wake up and look at the world we live in..what someone should be able to do, and what they can do are two very different things.

The issue is the word "but", use the word "and".

Example:

Rape is wrong AND women should make good choices. It's not either or, it's both.

 

[chargervol]

Something else that has gotten kind of lost in all this is that this lawsuit is about the environment and culture that has been created. it's not that these things happened or didn't happen.

so if you take that for what it is, and you go thru the 2 or 3 threads that are related to this topic, ask yourself, are these opinions they types of things that would contribute to a perception of that kind of environment ? and if so, is it possible if these opinions are shared by this many people in this forum, isn't also possible that these same types of thought processes are shared by at least some of the players and administrators?

i saw a post in another thread where the girl was called stupid for going back to same players place the day after his advances were rebutted, but then quickly stating, but she didn't deserve to be raped.

well, again, i don't think anyone would say anyone deserves to be raped. but when we start making excuses for the accused, that in and of itself is creating the exact environment they are looking to expose in this suit.

just something to think about, since this isn't a suit about did he or didn't he...it's all together different, as this deals solely with the environment/culture and the processes/procedures used administratively to deal with these incidents.

My recent comments have nothing to do with belief in guilt or innocence. And that applies to both the criminal cases and the lawsuit.

Now I will give a personal opinion on the lawsuit.
There are schools that do not remove players based solely on accusations, we ARE NOT one of those schools.

To me, it would make zero sense to nurture a culture of rape - if at the drop of an accusation, you lose players.
I'm sorry but that doesn't add up.
Despite what posters on a message board say, we are talking about a business and people paid to make it successful or lose their source of income.

The lawsuit is about the money imo.

 

[jakez4ut]

OK let's use your own example

I am not racist..but..probably not smart for a black person to walk into KKK or neo nazi meeting, cussing out the people inside..

Now that person ends up dead...does my statement in any way condone murder?

It is this simple..

Be smart not dead...
Be smart, not a rape victim...

This is no way places blame on victims or excuses the perpetrators of said crimes..

agreed. there's two things with these types of cases that should always just go unsaid assumptions.
1. the perpetrator doesn't abide by the same rules and morals we all do, so they don't apply to him, in their own mind.
2. the potential victim, in general, should exercise good "situational awareness" to prevent harm to themselves.

 

[jakez4ut]

My recent comments have nothing to do with belief in guilt or innocence. And that applies to both the criminal cases and the lawsuit.

Now I will give a personal opinion on the lawsuit.
There are schools that do not remove players based solely on accusations, we ARE NOT one of those schools.

To me, it would make zero sense to nurture a culture of rape - if at the drop of an accusation, you lose players.
I'm sorry but that doesn't add up.
Despite what posters on a message board say, we are talking about a business and people paid to make it successful or lose their source of income.

The lawsuit is about the money imo.

in truth, i don't disagree with this. but, with the type of lawsuit this is, it puts a lot on perception.

would any institution willfully encourage any of this? of course not. neither did UT.

but could there be misinterpretation of a policy or procedure? could there be misunderstood purpose behind said policy or procedure? could the policy or procedure implemented be the wrong one for that specific circumstance?

they don't have to prove intent. and they never will.

can they prove ineptness? or lack of control?

i don't know. all i'm saying is if i were in any way shape or form handling any part of this for UTK, i'd be handling it from a worst case standpoint....

 

[chargervol]

in truth, i don't disagree with this. but, with the type of lawsuit this is, it puts a lot on perception.

would any institution willfully encourage any of this? of course not. neither did UT.

but could there be misinterpretation of a policy or procedure? could there be misunderstood purpose behind said policy or procedure? could the policy or procedure implemented be the wrong one for that specific circumstance?

they don't have to prove intent. and they never will.

can they prove ineptness? or lack of control?

i don't know. all i'm saying is if i were in any way shape or form handling any part of this for UTK, i'd be handling it from a worst case standpoint....

I understand.
Once again, this is my opinion only but wording and accusations in the lawsuit suggest they are implying intent.
Things like including Lil Jon. Seems they are implying we were setting up an intentional culture of supporting rape.
And the majority of the cases were handled primarily by law enforcement. Unless we attempted to steer them away from this, we should be ok with the handling.
I can see the title IX concerns but in theory, that should be directed in a different suit and not solely at UT.

 

[jakez4ut]

I understand.
Once again, this is my opinion only but wording and accusations in the lawsuit suggest they are implying intent.
Things like including Lil Jon. Seems they are implying we were setting up an intentional culture of supporting rape.
And the majority of the cases were handled primarily by law enforcement. Unless we attempted to steer them away from this, we should be ok with the handling.
I can see the title IX concerns but in theory, that should be directed in a different suit and not solely at UT.

yeah, drudging up the Peyton manning incident and Lil John is a bit extreme, but the lawyers are using any/all means at their disposal to perpetuate this so called narrative of apathy at best, in regards this particular topic.

that part doesn't concern me.

what does is if you get Tim Rogers or Drae Bowles on the stand, and what do these guys have to say....

that's when it could get really interesting.

 

[ImportedVoL]

in truth, i don't disagree with this. but, with the type of lawsuit this is, it puts a lot on perception.

would any institution willfully encourage any of this? of course not. neither did UT.

but could there be misinterpretation of a policy or procedure? could there be misunderstood purpose behind said policy or procedure? could the policy or procedure implemented be the wrong one for that specific circumstance?

they don't have to prove intent. and they never will.

can they prove ineptness? or lack of control?

i don't know. all i'm saying is if i were in any way shape or form handling any part of this for UTK, i'd be handling it from a worst case standpoint....

I think from the wording of the lawsuit they absolutely have to prove intent..

The lawsuit states UTK was "promoting" a culture of sexual abuse towards women..as in they were somehow trying to cover up or make it easier to accomplish.

All players accused were immediately suspended from the team..the only action available to the coaches...beyond that it is the job of the police and courts to punish these people.

And this is in a society where one of the main premises of our justice system is innocent until proven guilty.

 

[chargervol]

yeah, drudging up the Peyton manning incident and Lil John is a bit extreme, but the lawyers are using any/all means at their disposal to perpetuate this so called narrative of apathy at best, in regards this particular topic.

that part doesn't concern me.

what does is if you get Tim Rogers or Drae Bowles on the stand, and what do these guys have to say....

that's when it could get really interesting.

True.
To be honest though, our fandom and the university itself is much larger than any individual employee.
If there is any incompetent or sinister members, I'd be willing to suffer the short term setbacks in trade for members worthy of their position.
And I'm not getting any younger. I need this turn around to happen sooner rather than later lol. But I could be patient to see it done right, I would rather be certain our wonderful ladies are as safe as possible.
My gut still says "it's all about the money" though.

 

[volfan102455]

yeah, drudging up the Peyton manning incident and Lil John is a bit extreme, but the lawyers are using any/all means at their disposal to perpetuate this so called narrative of apathy at best, in regards this particular topic.

that part doesn't concern me.

what does is if you get Tim Rogers or Drae Bowles on the stand, and what do these guys have to say....

that's when it could get really interesting.

And if they say something different than what they said before some will assume it is the truth and the other was a lie when it may be the other way around.

And if they tell the same story, there will be some that will still believe something different happened.

 

[jakez4ut]

I think from the wording of the lawsuit they absolutely have to prove intent..

The lawsuit states UTK was "promoting" a culture of sexual abuse towards women..as in they were somehow trying to cover up or make it easier to accomplish.

All players accused were immediately suspended from the team..the only action available to the coaches...beyond that it is the job of the police and courts to punish these people.

And this is in a society where one of the main premises of our justice system is innocent until proven guilty.

but this is a civil suit, so guilt can be relative. i don't think there was any promoting going on either. and all i'm doing is allowing for the possibility of...what if there is merit to their case, and what could that look like?

 

[jakez4ut]

And if they say something different than what they said before some will assume it is the truth and the other was a lie when it may be the other way around.

And if they tell the same story, there will be some that will still believe something different happened.

if it gets to that point, it will only matter what the judge thinks.

 

[jakez4ut]

True.
To be honest though, our fandom and the university itself is much larger than any individual employee.
If there is any incompetent or sinister members, I'd be willing to suffer the short term setbacks in trade for members worthy of their position.
And I'm not getting any younger. I need this turn around to happen sooner rather than later lol. But I could be patient to see it done right, I would rather be certain our wonderful ladies are as safe as possible.
My gut still says "it's all about the money" though.

agreed.