To Protect and to Serve II

#426
#426
Rasputin_Vol said:
Shoot first, ask questions last...

I swear between this so-called war on terror and this so-called war on drugs, cops will be shooting civilians like dogs on the streets and/or robbing us blind with civil asset forfeitures.
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You know how long it takes a guy to raise a gun and shoot an officer? He's supposed to stop and ask questions first when someone is appearing to draw on him, after a report of a guy with a pistol pointing it at people?

Its a tragedy this happened. You want to criticize dispatch for not advising some of the minimizing of the situation by the original caller? Ok, I'm fine with that. Blame can be put on the person who tinkered with the gun to make it look real. You might blame the manufacturer of the toy gun for making it so easy to remove the orange cap that tells everyone its a toy. You can certainly blame the kid a bit for pointing the gun -- that looked real -- at passers by.

But the cops did what they are supposed to do given the information they had.
 
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#427
#427
n_huffhines said:
No he didn't. There is no way they are trained to roll up on potentially dangerous people (children) like that. It creates more risk for everyone involved.

It put him in a position where he felt like he had no other choice and made a bad snap decision. A terrible snap decision. An innocent boy is dead.
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Proof positive you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
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#429
#429
lawgator1 said:
Proof positive you have no idea what you are talking about.
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OK, say you are right, and they are trained to put themselves in a terrible position, don't you think this needs to change?

What happens if my buddy and I do the same thing? Are we good with the law? Or am I going to jail the rest of my life? Why?
 
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#431
#431
lawgator1 said:
You know how long it takes a guy to raise a gun and shoot an officer? He's supposed to stop and ask questions first when someone is appearing to draw on him, after a report of a guy with a pistol pointing it at people?

Its a tragedy this happened. You want to criticize dispatch for not advising some of the minimizing of the situation by the original caller? Ok, I'm fine with that. Blame can be put on the person who tinkered with the gun to make it look real. You might blame the manufacturer of the toy gun for making it so easy to remove the orange cap that tells everyone its a toy. You can certainly blame the kid a bit for pointing the gun -- that looked real -- at passers by.

But the cops did what they are supposed to do given the information they had.
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I think I'll call 9/11 and tell the dispatcher there is some man lurking around the neighborhood with a dark colored bag on his shoulder.

I bet postman gets a real scare when the cops come...
 
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#432
#432
n_huffhines said:
No he didn't. There is no way they are trained to roll up on potentially dangerous people (children) like that. It creates more risk for everyone involved.

It put him in a position where he felt like he had no other choice and made a bad snap decision. A terrible snap decision. An innocent boy is dead.
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Yo..that is actually their job...

What creates more risk is allowing the situation to continue or escalate..
 
#433
#433
n_huffhines said:
OK, say you are right, and they are trained to put themselves in a terrible position, don't you think this needs to change?

What happens if my buddy and I do the same thing? Are we good with the law? Or am I going to jail the rest of my life? Why?
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That's an easy one..... It's their job..... I have certain rights, privileges, and protections associated with my job that the average person doesn't have.....everyone in this room has the same kind of protections in their job..... It's why we go through school, licensing, and training.
 
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#434
#434
n_huffhines said:
The opinions need to be based on the details of this case, right?

The cop didn't just find himself in a tight spot. He put himself there, so Tim's explanation doesn't work.
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Absolutely it's based on details.

Now are all the details known? Or are we all making assumptions based on a grainy video?
 
#437
#437
volbeast33 said:
That's an easy one..... It's their job..... I have certain rights, privileges, and protections associated with my job that the average person doesn't have.....everyone in this room has the same kind of protections in their job..... It's why we go through school, licensing, and training.
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Those things aren't there to protect the licensed, they are there to protect everybody else. Are you f-ing kidding? Licensing is about the consumer (that's the justification at least).

Licensing in most fields means you are held to a higher standard. If you want to be a bookkeeper, go ahead and get DUIs. If you want to be a CPA, you can't do that. They are held to higher standards.

Licensing for public servants means they are excused when they **** up. Who knew?
 
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#438
#438
n_huffhines said:
Clearly. If they had parked far away and spoke to the kid on a megaphone, everybody involved would be dead.
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In this situation that would have kept a tragic situation from happening.... The cops thought others lives were in danger.... We can play armchair QB all day long.... This is a very sad situation.
 
#439
#439
volbeast33 said:
In this situation that would have kept a tragic situation from happening.... The cops thought others lives were in danger.... We can play armchair QB all day long.... This is a very sad situation.
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Apparently you have not seen the video. Nobody else is even close to Tamir Rice. He is all by himself at a park bench. Who was he going to hurt if the cops kept their distance? They could see no one was around.

They didn't want to give him a chance to run. That's all there is to it.
 
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#440
#440
n_huffhines said:
OK, say you are right, and they are trained to put themselves in a terrible position, don't you think this needs to change?

What happens if my buddy and I do the same thing? Are we good with the law? Or am I going to jail the rest of my life? Why?
Click to expand...


It cannot change in the current realities. Trust me, the cops would love it if they could sit back, let situations just calm down on their own. They do not want to take unnecessary risks for obvious reasons. But the fact is that hesitation can be a terrible thing in these situations, and they are taught first and foremost to get control of a situation.

The kid I'm sure was surprised to see the cops and was taking the gun out to show them it was a toy, that it was innocent. The problem is they do not know that. They cannot hesitate to find out, is this real? Is he really going to shoot me?
 
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#441
#441
n_huffhines said:
Apparently you have not seen the video. Nobody else is even close to Tamir Rice. He is all by himself at a park bench. Who was he going to hurt if the cops kept their distance? They could see no one was around.

They didn't want to give him a chance to run. That's all there is to it.
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What!?

First, the report was that he was pointing it at people.

Second, THE COPS are there. What, they don't count? Risk to them is irrelevant?

He wasn't trying to run away and they were not trying to stop that. They had a report that he was pointing a gun at people and as they pull up he pulls the gun out.

Sheesz, stop trying to inject into the situation facts known afterwards, or speculation about the kid's intent - none of which is known the officer who has a split second to make a decision about a guy with a gun in his hand.
 
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#442
#442
n_huffhines said:
Those things aren't there to protect the licensed, they are there to protect everybody else. Are you f-ing kidding? Licensing is about the consumer (that's the justification at least).

Licensing in most fields means you are held to a higher standard. If you want to be a bookkeeper, go ahead and get DUIs. If you want to be a CPA, you can't do that. They are held to higher standards.

Licensing for public servants means they are excused when they **** up. Who knew?
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It offers protections for the consumer and the person doing the providing. If it is considered reasonably within your job responsibility than you are covered....
 
#443
#443
The police put themselves in a position where there was little chance of the kid getting out of there alive- where the scenario of him not being an actual threat becomes almost irrelevant because they're a few feet away from him with guns drawn and any movement from a surprised and scared kid could and would be taken as life threatening.

I played with airsoft guns with no orange tips in a park. In the midst of playing, someone could have easily thought I might have pointed the gun at them and it could be real. If the cops rolled up on me out of nowhere and scared the **** out of me pointing guns at me, I guess I would be dead too because I imagine I would have tried to show them the gun was fake even though in retrospect that's a bad idea.
 
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#444
#444
lawgator1 said:
Oh, so you are an expert now on operational tactics for law enforcement? Tell me, where did you get your certification and are you road patrol or corrections, or maybe dual certified?

You have no freaking clue what you are talking about.

Had the police more slowly responded and this kid started shooting and killing passers by, you'd be screeching about their incompetence.
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I've done my fair share of training to take down an armed threat. What those cops did was ****ing stupid at every level. They aggressively put themselves and everybody at risk by escalating a situation that didn't need it. Had it been a real shooter intent on killing, he could have trapped them in their vehicle with incoming rounds, they would have died, as well as everyone else had that been an actual shooter.

If anything, common sense tells them to pull up about 20 yards away from the threat utilizing the vehicle as cover, and draw their weapons and demand compliance for the gun to be dropped, or else.
 
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#445
#445
lawgator1 said:
Oh, so you are an expert now on operational tactics for law enforcement? Tell me, where did you get your certification and are you road patrol or corrections, or maybe dual certified?

You have no freaking clue what you are talking about.

Had the police more slowly responded and this kid started shooting and killing passers by, you'd be screeching about their incompetence.
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Besides, you haven't a ****ing clue about what you're talking about most of the time, doesn't stop you, counselor....
 
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#446
#446
lawgator1 said:
What!?

First, the report was that he was pointing it at people.

Second, THE COPS are there. What, they don't count? Risk to them is irrelevant?
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They increased their own risk and the kid's risk. How do you not see that?

The 911 caller also said the gun was "probably fake". I guess they only care about the information that encourages wild west mode.
 
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#447
#447
DEFENDTHISHOUSE said:
If anything, common sense tells them to pull up about 20 yards away from the threat utilizing the vehicle as cover, and draw their weapons and demand compliance for the gun to be dropped, or else.
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Sadly, this level of common sense can't be expected with the cops we have. Just show up on the seen with guns blazing... pew pew pew
 
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#448
#448
Rasputin_Vol said:
Sadly, this level of common sense can't be expected with the cops we have. Just show up on the seen with guns blazing... pew pew pew
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It's the training. Also, the cop who shot Rice had been fired from his previous gig as a cop for being emotionally unstable.

But, lets wait for the facts...... Sheez
 
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