Butch says it takes 6 to 7 years to build a program in the SEC

[Orange_Crush]

Sure, you CAN get down to 75 by keeping all of your older players and signing tiny classes, but most coaches are smart enough not to do that. And even if you do that, your depth still goes out the window and quickly.

You can't recruit 80 per year haha. That's the total on your team. That's why I'm trying to explain that reductions aren't applied to recruiting classes and thus deferred to the future. It's a statement that you have to cut down your roster right away, one way or another.

I'd rather face Bama limited to 80 than Bama after that with 85, because with 80 they have less depth. The depth issue hits hardest during the period of sanctions, not after it usually. Afterward, your depth is young, but young is better than nonexistent.

The point I was making is that if there were a time when Tennessee's situation was at rock bottom and we didn't have numbers, it was in 2010 much more than in 2013.

Well duh on me. lol my bad. But you get my point.

I'd rather face either of the Bama's than the post-Dooley era that Butch inherited.

I disagree about 2010 or 2013. Neither was ideal, and Dooley may get too much blame for his coaching (I think his greatest blame is team management and recruiting, not necessarily coaching). But Dooley's recruiting was horrible. The talent level was a large hill that Butch has to climb, and he can't climb it in a year or two.

 

[NashVol11]

I understand that, and it's been part of my posts. What I'm saying is that you don't lose all of your payers and have to rebuild immediately. You lose them over 4-5 years as steady attrition, which you can partially replace with good recruiting. So, even as you mentioned, the attrition will not show up until later.

See my above post.

If Bama was stocked (which they always are), then they had hugely talented athletes with depth.

They lose 10 schollies a year (which is EXTREME, by the way).

They lose 20 seniors. They restock with 75 studs. It hurt, but they still have three recruiting seasons to play, as well as ~2/3 worth of a potentially strong recruiting class.

Next year, they lose 20 seniors. They restock with 75 studs. It hurts again, but they still have two recruiting classes, 2/3 of one and 2/3 coming in.

Any true decline will reveal itself incrementally, over time. And will probably show up minimally if a team was well stocked and recruits well during probation.

If you lose 20 seniors and are down 10 schollies, you can only replace the 20 with 10 freshmen unless you get people to transfer. You almost certainly will, because a 10-person recruiting class is a recipe for future disaster, so let's say 5 transfer, meaning 25 total leave, and you bring in 15 freshmen.

Now you're down to 75 players. When the next 20 seniors graduate, you can replace them with 20 freshmen, because you're not over the limit anymore. But your depth is gone, because you only have 75 players. You have to think about how hard you practice because any injury can derail your season. That's where it hurts the most.

 

[Orange_Crush]

If you lose 20 seniors and are down 10 schollies, you can only replace the 20 with 10 freshmen unless you get people to transfer. You almost certainly will, because a 10-person recruiting class is a recipe for future disaster, so let's say 5 transfer, meaning 25 total leave, and you bring in 15 freshmen.

Now you're down to 75 players. When the next 20 seniors graduate, you can replace them with 20 freshmen, because you're not over the limit anymore. But your depth is gone, because you only have 75 players. You have to think about how hard you practice because any injury can derail your season. That's where it hurts the most.

At the end of the day, you're down a little less than 1/9th of a team. You are regressing slowly due to talent already on campus when sanctions took effect, and a slightly smaller class size to replace what's leaving each year. The problems will show more later than sooner, especially if you're recruiting high caliber players in the classes you do sign.

 

[tvolsfan]

Didnt James Franklin take over Vandy and go 9-4 in yr 2 & 3?

Well, yeah, but only because he walked into a goldmine of talent.

 

[tvolsfan]

Yeah, but they were only 2-10, and since Tennessee was equal to 1-11 Stanford, Butch inherited a worse situation. Lol

Just remember, when in doubt, Tennessee was worse. I know that may sound weird coming from Tennessee fans, but you gotta just roll with it.

And when Florida fans come here and thank our coaching staff for the free wins, or all our opponents' boards say we are loaded with talent but failing because of coaching, just ignore it. They're just scared and/or negaButches.

 

[tvolsfan]

it wasn't that bad, but the attrition brought on by 3 coaching transitions in 4 years along with well documented busts and washouts created something akin to a team coMing off NCAA probation.

I remember a fairly prominent guy telling me that Kiffin leaving when he did would set the program back 5 years and I thought he was exaggerating. He wasn't.

Well let's be careful here. Kiffin leaving was the first in a series of unfortunate events, but nobody made us hire Derek Dooley.

 

[ReaderVol]

LOL so funny. Some of you are still on this quote that was taken out of context. Jones NEVER said that "he believes" it takes 6 or 7 years. Why do yall refuse to face reality. Wow

 

[tvolsfan]

LOL so funny. Some of you are still on this quote that was taken out of context. Jones NEVER said that "he believes" it takes 6 or 7 years. Why do yall refuse to face reality. Wow

We're not really still talking about the quote. We're arguing with those who seem to agree with him.

 

[utvolpj]

We're not really still talking about the quote. We're arguing with those who seem to agree with him.

Of course you're not talking about it since you've shown you never understood it in the first place. You really need to learn to think for yourself instead of being a parrot

 

[tvolsfan]

Of course you're not talking about it since you've shown you never understood it in the first place. You really need to learn to think for yourself instead of being a parrot

What's to understand? It's just another meaningless Butch Jones quote. My issue is that some people actually believe that Butch is going to magically start winning big down the road because Harbaugh and Saban didn't get off to great starts at lesser programs.

 

[Wylo]

Dabo didn't need to build the program up, he just needed to get enough athletes and solid assistants that they could out talent his coaching.

Sounds a lot like Butch.

 

[utvolpj]

What's to understand?

There's plenty to understand if that was truly your goal. It's very obvious that your goal on VN is something else entirely and it's pathetic

 

[GAVol]

Alabama won two national titles in three years on probation, so I wouldn't say that's much of a big deal.

Lol... You're clearly not following what I meant when I said "probation".

 

[Orange_Crush]

What's to understand? My issue is that some people actually believe that Butch is going to magically start winning big down the road because Harbaugh and Saban didn't get off to great starts at lesser programs.

Man, I need to go back and read this thread. There must have been some massive 'dumb' being thrown around if that's really what people have said. "Butch will win because H&S started winning late."

Seems like a non sequitur.

Is that really what they said? Or did they say that we may want to pump the breaks on guaranteeing Butch will fail, since others have taken time to win? That's two completely different arguments, and would make your quote a huge straw-man misrepresentation.

 

[ReaderVol]

What's to understand? It's just another meaningless Butch Jones quote. My issue is that some people actually believe that Butch is going to magically start winning big down the road because Harbaugh and Saban didn't get off to great starts at lesser programs.

LOL but that's the point. It isn't HIS quote. He never said he believed that. He said he was TOLD that by someone. Of course SDS took it out of context along with a few Tweeters and the gullible crew on VN latched on. Very silly

 

[GAVol]

What's to understand? It's just another meaningless Butch Jones quote. My issue is that some people actually believe that Butch is going to magically start winning big down the road because Harbaugh and Saban didn't get off to great starts at lesser programs.

It's almost as annoying as people who pretend to be sure he won't win and push that narrative.

People need to get over their "issues" and just enjoy the ride rather than pretending anyone cares who ends up being right.

 

[jakez4ut]

It's almost as annoying as people who pretend to be sure he won't win and push that narrative.

People need to get over their "issues" and just enjoy the ride rather than pretending anyone cares who ends up being right.

:thumbsup:

 

[ReaderVol]

what's to understand? It's just another meaningless quote that butch jones never said in the context myself and others are trying to continue to lay on him because facts do not matter when the goal is to bash . My issue is that some people actually believe that butch is going to magically start winning big down the road because harbaugh and saban didn't get off to great starts at lesser programs.

fyp

 

[KBVol]

Other factors like recruiting, facilities, resources, and recent and overall history that all favor Tennessee.

But yes, the bolded is probably true of Walt Harris and not Derek Dooley. Tennessee and its consistent top-20 recruiting classes was a team devoid of talent and winning games on Dooley's coaching, while Stanford and its 149th-ranked senior class was a sleeping giant loaded with talent.

I don't want to spend too much time on this, though, because this comparison has to be the dumbest thing posted on this board in the past month. I'm sure next you'll be saying that the situation Butch inherited was worse than post-death penalty SMU.

The general idea on here is that any other coach who's had success, especially quick success, at other schools just stepped into a gold mine chock full of 4 and 5 star players.....each team was just on the cusp of a dynastic run of 4 or 5 national titles before that coach took over.

Otoh, Jones took over a situation 4-5 times worse than the SMU death penalty and recent UAB rebuild combined and 4-5, perhaps 6 full recruiting classes are required to get any type of depth built into the program (after his 2013 class that is, since according to some that class which included Dobbs, JRM, Sutton and others didn't count). There isn't a reasonable discussion to be had with a very, very large number of posters on here.

 

[ReaderVol]

The general idea on here is that any other coach who's had success, especially quick success, at other schools just stepped into a gold mine chock full of 4 and 5 star players.....each team was just on the cusp of a dynastic run of 4 or 5 national titles before that coach took over.

Otoh, Jones took over a situation 4-5 times worse than the SMU death penalty and recent UAB rebuild combined and 4-5, perhaps 6 full recruiting classes are required to get any type of depth built into the program (after his 2013 class that is, since according to some that class which included Dobbs, JRM, Sutton and others didn't count). There isn't a reasonable discussion to be had with a very, very large number of posters on here.

And you sir are at the VERY TOP of that list.

 

[jakez4ut]

The general idea on here is that any other coach who's had success, especially quick success, at other schools just stepped into a gold mine chock full of 4 and 5 star players.....each team was just on the cusp of a dynastic run of 4 or 5 national titles before that coach took over.

Otoh, Jones took over a situation 4-5 times worse than the SMU death penalty and recent UAB rebuild combined. There isn't a reasonable discussion to be had with a very, very large number of posters on here.

that's what it's been made out to be. i assure you, when i have spoken on the subject, it's not the case.

i don't like the comparisons that many of us throw back and forth here.

as far as i'm concerned, Saban is an extreme outlier, and not what the standard should be be derived from.

here's what's known...when CBJ took over, this program was in as bad a shape as it's been since Johnny took over for Bill Battle. i don't need to compare to any other programs to know that's NOT GOOD.

and as off the wall as it is make comparisons to those programs, it's equally irresponsible to shrug off 2008-2012 as if they never happened, and not acknowledge that this was, in fact, a program re build job.

 

[MustafaRasta]

The general idea on here is that any other coach who's had success, especially quick success, at other schools just stepped into a gold mine chock full of 4 and 5 star players.....each team was just on the cusp of a dynastic run of 4 or 5 national titles before that coach took over.

Otoh, Jones took over a situation 4-5 times worse than the SMU death penalty and recent UAB rebuild combined and 4-5, perhaps 6 full recruiting classes are required to get any type of depth built into the program (after his 2013 class that is, since according to some that class which included Dobbs, JRM, Sutton and others didn't count). There isn't a reasonable discussion to be had with a very, very large number of posters on here.

There are about 4 zealots on either side of that argument that push it constantly. Unless you count game day or the two days following a loss when 98% of you can't hold you emotions in check.

If y'all ever stop feeling enough to have a thought you should think about how the Vols get better press from a guy named Booger and a former Bama QB than they do on this board or I dunno, just for ****s and giggles compare how long the "Kyler Kerbyson's Sucks!!!" threads to the ones where he was awarded player of the week.

 

[KBVol]

that's what it's been made out to be. i assure you, when i have spoken on the subject, it's not the case.

i don't like the comparisons that many of us throw back and forth here.

as far as i'm concerned, Saban is an extreme outlier, and not what the standard should be be derived from.

here's what's known...when CBJ took over, this program was in as bad a shape as it's been since Johnny took over for Bill Battle. i don't need to compare to any other programs to know that's NOT GOOD.

and as off the wall as it is make comparisons to those programs, it's equally irresponsible to shrug off 2008-2012 as if they never happened, and not acknowledge that this was, in fact, a program re build job.

Obviously, my post was full of hyperbole to make the point. Jones took over a tire fire from A to Z after Dooley. I've never argued otherwise. Despite having several NFL caliber players, primarily on offense, the entire program and culture was a mess. Jones has done a great job turning all that around.

However, so many, when discussing this topic, refuse to acknowledge that any other SEC coach has had similar difficulties in rebuilding their respective programs as well. There have been other grease fires around the country that have been rebuilt very nicely by other competent, successful coaches...and to say so simply doesn't diminish the job Jones has done here.

 

[jakez4ut]

Obviously, my post was full of hyperbole to make the point. Jones took over a tire fire from A to Z after Dooley. I've never argued otherwise. Despite having several NFL caliber players, primarily on offense, the entire program and culture was a mess. Jones has done a great job turning all that around.

However, so many, when discussing this topic, refuse to acknowledge that any other SEC coach has had similar difficulties in rebuilding their respective programs as well. There have been other grease fires around the country that have been rebuilt very nice by other competent, successful coaches...and to say so simply doesn't diminish the job Jones has done here.

well, then, we agree.lol:

 

[Smokey123]

Yeah, John Blake and Galen Hall and Gerry DiNardo and Paul Hackett had just great programs. Coaches usually get fired when they've built championship programs that don't need to be turned around.

You know, Butch probably inherited the worst situation of all time, anywhere. 7 years probably isn't enough; we need to give him 12, because going from 5-7 to 8-4 is a downright miracle. Most coaches would still be losing to Vandy right now, amirite?

Avoiding the question...? Nice